Hardtop Mounted Outriggers

ROBERTH · Oct 27, 2011

Hi Folks, I know we discussed this a while back, but didn't get a lot of feedback. I was looking through some pics in the gallery trying to get some ideas on a custom rod holder. Considering the V-Lock and custom design but also noticed the outriggers mount on NO REGRETS boat that is seems that they are just mounted to the hardtop, no welds to the pipes for support but with some blocks. Maybe Starboard, and they don't extend out much from the size of the outrigger base plates.

I discussed the mounts a couple of months ago while at my welder getting the cracked pipes fixed, and he mentioned that when they do the riggers, they don't bother welding and just mount on the hardtops, so now I wonder, if welding is overkill or not.....

How many of you out there have outriggers mounted to the hardtops and no welded supports to hardtop pipes? Anyone have any issues or cracking?

Even though I did mount my outriggers to the gunnel, and fairly happy with them, I would rather have them up top and out of the way as well as ability to travel with them on top collapsed and not bouncing around on my deck. Just seems there are some advantages on the hardtop.

Enough Already · Oct 27, 2011

I mounted mine directly in the hardtop with backing plate and as close to a pipe as I could. No flexing or cracking issues in 5 years. Probably the reason is that I do not run hard with the riggeres extended. When I re-set locations, I aim the poles straight back and keep the speed down. When I am done for the day, I retract the poles completely before heading in. I don't think anyone officially will say "no problem" but it seems you can get away with it if you are careful. One thing to keep in mind is the hardtop height. I don't have the new raise-from-below crank, so I have to stand on the gunnels to lift the poles up and turn the knob to lock them in position. Can be dicey in big seas.

Fishtales · Oct 27, 2011

Hi,
I installed them without the welds. About 3 years ago. No issues to date.
GW recommends the brackets that are welded to the hardtop frame and does this if they are ordered from the factory.

It is a lot of work if you decide to do this. You need to remove the top and any associated electronics, remove any wiring in the pipes to the hardtop and then do the welding.

I ended up rationalizing that I would do it without the welded brackets and if the top cracked, then I would replace it and weld them in at that time. As stated it worked out fine to this point.

Some ideas
- I used Taco GS270s. They leverage a four bolt mount pattern around the center thru hole. I also used the wedges to compensate for the hardtop rolloff, not really needed, but does ensure the outriggers are vertical. There are 3 different angle plates sold as I recall. Can't be sure, but I thought it was the seven degree ones that I used. These are hard plastic pieces that go between the hardtop top and the outrigger base.
- Use a backing plate on the other side. Taco sold these as well.
- Use tube spacers. These are hard plastic tubes that go in the 4 mounting holes and the bolts go thru them. This gives you added protection against the hardtop being damaged when the mounting bolts are tightened.
- Seal everything with 4200. The center hole edges, the mounting hole edges, the side of the tube spacers that meet the hardtop, the wedge plate surface and under the outrigger base. I over did this to ensure there was no way water could get into the hardtop coring (which is balsa).
- Tighten snug and then use a crossing pattern (on the diagnol) to tighten down.
- Finally, consider the telescoping poles. These collapse down and are out of the way when not in use or if you have bridges or other overhead concerns.

The toughest part is drilling the first hole. Once you do this, your committed and the job goes fast.

Good luck.

Fishtales · Oct 27, 2011

One last thing....
I used plastic washers in addition to metal ones where the screw head and nut came in contact with the outrigger base and metal backing plate. I also used nuts with nylon locks in them.

ocnslr · Oct 27, 2011

We purchased our 2002 Islander new, with a Vista (soft) top. Had a custom hard top installed six months later, with predrilled mounting pads welded to the frame during fabrication.

The following year I installed Taco Grand Slams myself. Just drilled the holes the rest of the way through, then enlarged the holes in the hard top - but not the mounting pad - and used compression sleeves just slightly shorter than the thickness of the top. This allows you to really tighten the mounting bolts, without any problem with crushing the hard top core. Also protects the hard top from any crushing due to rigger loads on the mounts.

We have about 1600 hours under power, with thousands of miles running, and a lot of snotty conditions. The riggers are the 15-ft heavy duty (1.5" diameter) model, and they are left extended all the time. In fact, the only times they have been collapsed is for the annual removal for cleaning, lubrication and waxing, and for windage reduction when we have a hurricane warning. We leave the outrigger lines tight, so the riggers have a bit of a bending load on them at rest. This significantly reduces the ability of the rigger pole to whip vertically, reducing the loads on the mount and the rigger pole.

I think you can go ahead and mount them w/o welded backing plates, but I would suggest you use compression sleeves to protect the top as much as possible.

Good Luck!

Brian

Shutterbug · Oct 28, 2011

I wouldn't look at welded mounting pads as overkill, to me a necessity.

I don't know the strength of newer hardtops. Mine manufactured in 87 is approx 3/8" thick solid glass. Mounted as close to framing as possible and with a backing plate (3/4" starboard), they flexed the hard top way too much for me.

Easy for me to spend your money, go with the extra labor/cost which equals peace of mind.

ROBERTH · Oct 28, 2011

Fishtales, you give me the vote of confidence here and great details. For the insulators, what did you use? Are these already available for the size bolts? I just haven't seen any sleeves like this. Are they nylon, plastic or aluminum?

Will have to check on the wedges and backing plates from Taco. Was thinking I had to fabricate my own out of starboard or aluminum. Thinking Aluminum would be too stiff and if there is flex movement, would stress at corners of harder alum. surface and potentially cause a crack, whereas Starboard has more flex, like fiberglass, but is enough to stiffen and support. Of course, an thinner piece of alum. would work. I have some 3/8" alum plate that I would have used, but that might be too thick and stiff.

I did get info back from Grady and they sent me some pics of brackets I could get from their supplier that can be welded on. Same ones they put on new boats. But, once I get them, then have to remove wiring from top, break factory seal from top to allow the welding, is just too much work, labor and cost.

Like said, maybe go the unwelded route and if suffer any cracks, then repair and go to the extent to weld, but finding a lot of folks that do not have any issues with non welded so far.

Also, another option I think possible when running, lay the riggers down toward the transom, and secure them down to the transom to keep them from whipping and that would keep the flex down also, rather than having to collapse them. Especially in rough seas.

I like the idea of being able to crank them down when it is rough! That extra $500 might be a safety device worth considering.
The outriggers I have now, I moved from my 20' Renken Bowrider over to the Grady. They are WM Heavy Duty 15', but don't collapse. It was funny, when flexing the riggers on the Renken, the entire gunnel would flex with them. Never had a crack or issue for the 25 years of running them and this boat took a beating. I have actually broken riggers due to rough seas in that boat, but that was mostly due to aged and corroded riggers.
With that, I think it is a mistake to get too stiff on the hardtop, so why I am thinking maybe better to use Starboard instead of Aluminum backing plates. Whadda ya think?

Anyone else have non welded hardtop mounted outriggers? Issues or not?

Fishtales · Oct 28, 2011

Hi,

The compression sleeves that Brian refers to are the same things that I called tube spacers (actually this is Taco's description).

Go to tacomarine.com, select top mount outriggers and you will find the 270s and the telescoping poles.
Then search backing plates. The ones you want are the BP-150.
Then search wedge plates. The ones you want are the white plastic, 7 degree if a factory hardtop. These are WP-150.

The hardware was all from lowes or hd. I went with SS bolts, ss washers, ss nut with nylon insert. I waited until I calculated the stack up for the base, plate, wedge and hardtop before getting the right length screw. You want the bolt to end flush or protrude slightly from the nylon nut.
I placed the white nylon washers between all metal (on both sides of metal washer on top and on both sides of the washer on the nut side. Maybe overkill, but what the heck.

I thought the tube spacers came with the outriggers. I got a new set of bases and a demo floor model of the 15' (they sell 18' too, but I went with 15' due to my concerns of having too large a pole and moment to crack the hardtop). I think 15' are more than enough personally after using them.
The holes you drill for the bolts are bigger than the bolts themselves as you have to install the tube spacers. So wait until you get the tube spacers before you drill. If I recall it was a 5/8 hole for the bolts and a 3 1/4" for the center (you need a hole saw for this).

Since the tube spacers did not come with the bases, I called Taco and they sent them right out to me.

If I were in your position, call Taco in parallel and get them going on getting you the tube spacers just in case they don't come with the bases. They also have installation instructions on their website.

There are other brands than Taco out there too. Using them as a reference. I have no relationship with them.

Fishtales · Oct 28, 2011

Couple of tips.
Use a framing square to get the positioning right/square with the hardtop edges.
The riggers come with a paper template. Make copies before you go to the boat.
Install the template on the underside. Check the template placement with the backing plate. You want to make sure you have enough room between the plate and the hardtop frame.
The old measure twice (maybe three times) cut once applies on this job.
Drill from the bottom until you just break thru the top then drill the rest from the top. This will make sure you get a nice clean hole on both sides for the center and mounting holes.

The hardest part is positioning the template correct and working up the nads to drill your boat. Once you do, the first install goes fast and the second even faster.

Good luck!

Fishtales · Oct 28, 2011

Sorry. The more I think, the more I remember....

The GS70s allow you to position the riggers almost vertical to horizontal ( full 90 degrees). The telescoping poles are positive locking and collapse down real nice. Taco has (2) sets of rigging cables. Get the more expensive heavy duty one. They also sell a plastic and rubber caddy (search the site) that attaches to the poles. You can wrap the rigging cables between the two piece caddy on each pole. This gets all the black line neatly wrapped on the pole so you don't have it in your way when you don't want it. I really like this feature when we cruise or fish when the riggers are not needed.

Remember to 4200 all cut areas and screws. There are two clips that screw to the gunnel to hold the rigging cables - 4200 these too.

I also got a set of what I call poor man's outriggers. These are basically "T"s that mount in the gunnel rod holder and allow you to place your rod in them. The rods are perpendicular to beam. Like these www.arrigonidesign.com/rodholders.htm. I end up using these all the time.

Fishtales · Oct 28, 2011

last thing... the tube spacers are hard black plastic.

ocnslr · Oct 28, 2011

All GREAT info from Fishtales.

The only thing I would add is to check - in advance - that the position you select allows sufficient space for the 90* arc of the handle when you swing the outriggers from aft to on the beam. Easy to have hardtop supports, or eisenglass curtains in the way if you don't plan ahead. (I speak from experience on this, as the HT fabricator did not do this...).

Brian

ROBERTH · Oct 28, 2011

Fishtales in on the ball here! Thanks for the excellent details. I feel like I was just watching you do your installation!

Kiddin' aside, detail is great and OCNSLR, I would have forgetten about the eisenglass curtains. Was thinking there was room between the very outside edge and before the pipes, but this for sure would be in the way of the curtains, so sounds like further inboard on the inside of the pipes and out far enough to allow the lift handle and crank handle if I go for that model to move.

WM has a demo Taco center with lots of different stuff mounted like the different series outrigger bases on a Ttop, so I will check that out more next time down to the coast and then take a measurement to see where my mounting possibilities are.

Only thing there is if too far inboard, might want to consider the 18' poles as I will be losing a couple of feet from the current gunnel mounted riggers....and they seem to be good on spacing. I just have to wonder how much more stress a pole only 3' longer would be......

Sounds like the taco parts are all there for a complete and proper installation....so off to their site to check out the parts. I wonder if I can find those spacers in a hardware store somewhere...will keep an eye out for those as I might need them when I remount the radar this winter.

ayacht · Nov 1, 2011

I looked for the spacers recently and did not find anything. Hopefully someone here can tell us where to get them for other mountings on the hardtop, like the radar you mentioned. One guy recommended pvc pipe or pex pipe for the spacers. Not sure what folks think about that but the pex is really tough stuff.

Fishtales · Nov 1, 2011

Hi Guys,
Any hard plastic tube will do. The trick is to get one that is just bigger than the size of the bolt you plant to use. Cut the tube to the exact dimension of the hardtop so when you tighten down the top and bottom plates compress against the tube as well as the hardtop. The lateral strength of the plastic will add protection against collapsing the hardtop in the area of the bolt.

tx

ayacht · Dec 20, 2011

Hardtop Mounted Outriggers Decision Time

I know I am bringing this back up but have some new questions. Have the boat in a nice canvas shelter where I can work on it this winter. Best decision that I made. Little propane heater and can work on her all winter.

Now for the fun. I have a unique situation where I just received a new hardtop from Grady to replace my current one. Long story but it is finally here, more on that in a later post. We removed the old one and the outriggers are mounted to it directly. I do like a lot where they are mounted. See below.

They worked fine but are mounted directly to the hardtop. So I ponder do I try to get a plate welded to the hardtop in the area? (I have a real good local welder we use for aluminum all the time) Or do I just go to the directly to the hardtop? I really do not feel like having to remove the wires for the welding. Is it only the wires in the tube directly in the area of the weld that need to be moved?

ayacht · Dec 26, 2011

Thought I would give an update to this idea for those of you who think welding a plate to your frame is a good idea. To do it you have to remove the anodizing and my welder says that is a very bad idea. So I am going to mount them just as before and take the chance. I did look around for a way to re-anodize and that too was not easy. Have to take the part (the entire frame) to a place off the boat and have it dipped.

Hope this helps answer my question for others.

ayacht · May 14, 2012

I could not just leave it be mounting them as before seemed to be asking for trouble down the road. :bang

So after many long nights of worrying and dreaming of a solution to this issue. :hmm It came to me. If you cannot weld it then bolt it. So from there I did up a template and built the brackets below. The Outriggers are as stable as if they were on a welded plate. This will make sure that all the hard work I put into mounting this top the right way will not go to waste.

I am really proud of the final product and it just looks great. :dance

If you have an older hardtop or outriggers on them my project is worth the read and could save you big in the long run. Balsa cored hardtops are a time bomb waiting to ruin your winter. I got lucky with Grady giving me the new top.

You can see all of the photos on this project start to finish at this link. http://www.greatgrady.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=17862

ocnslr · May 14, 2012

Very Pretty Work.

ROBERTH · May 15, 2012

I just found them at Ace Hardware. Different sizes. They are in the slide out drawers where the screws/nuts/bolts are. They are white nylon and have them for different size bolts and also different lengths.

Hardtop Mounted Outriggers

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