Ethanol blended gas is BAD, BAD, BAD!

choogenboom

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 19, 2008
Messages
108
Reaction score
2
Points
18
Location
Beaufort SC
Take the ethanol problem very seriously - trust me, it is not overblown. Here is my first hand story.

I bought a 2004 330 Express in June of 2008. The boat had been sitting a long time but when I went to pick it up it both engines (F225's) fired up and ran like a clock. Note that it was about 50% full of fuel. So far so good. I motored up the coast for about 100 miles to my house and engines ran great. I am by nature a frugal guy, and rather than refuel on the water (usually non-ethanol fuel and costs a buck a gallon more) I fueled up using street gas which was E-10. Penny wise and pound foolish. I noticed the fuel bowls under the hood had water in them, so I drained both fuel bowls and both fuel filters. I did not replace the filters at that time as I had none on hand - the existing filters were Sierra 20 micron filters. I drained them all into a bucket so I could see what came out – a white milky looking fluid. That is definitely NOT what I am used to seeing come out of a fuel filter which is water and gas that separate nicely with some small amount of rust or dirt. It looked ugly and I assume that is what ethanol looks like after it phase separates with water.

Shortly thereafter the fuel feed pump fuse blew on my starboard engine. The local Yamaha service tech came out and replaced the pump under warranty. He suggested replacing the fuel filters with Yamaha OEM 10 micron filters, so I ordered some as well as the smaller paper filters that sit inside the fuel bowls under the hood.

I had been running on my Aux tank and made several trips without incident. On my last trip out the Aux tank ran dry, and I switched to my main tank. I ran for another hour back to the dock without incident. A week later I took the boat out and both engines died almost immediately. This time the fuses for the fuel feed pumps on both engines were blown. The Yamaha tech came this morning and pulled both pumps – both had seized up. We took them to the bench in my garage and got them freed up by applying power and alternating polarity – ie forcing the pump to run in forward and reverse until it broke free which it eventually did. We then flushed the pump, while running, with carb cleaner into a plastic container to see what came out. With both pumps it was pretty clear that rust was coming out. In the span of 1 week of sitting, both pumps had rusted in place and seized up.

There was no water in either the main fuel filters or in the under the hood fuel bowls, so how does water get to the fuel pump? There is only one way that could happen – Ethanol. The Yamaha tech shared with me the 3 pages in the Yamaha shop manual on the badness of ethanol. Ethanol’s is bad in two distinct ways:
1. It’s a wonderful solvent, so if you use E10 in an older boat that has previously run on good old regular, the E10 will dissolve all the varnish that has built up throughout the entire fuel system. It also removes oxidation – rust and corrosion. In the Yamaha manual there was a picture of a filter screen that was clogged solid with a white powder which I assume was aluminum oxide from the inside of a aluminum fuel tank. I saw the same white power in the filters that are under the hood of my engines. Note that all parts of the fuel system that come AFTER the filters will be donors of crap into the fuel pumps, fuel injectors or carburetors etc. so no amount of filtering can fully protect you from this first badness of Ethanol.
2. Water will dissolve into ethanol blended gas. Read this http://www.epa.gov/OMS/regs/fuels/rfg/waterphs.pdf if you want to get into the chemistry of it. Bottom line is that gas blended with MTBE (also bad stuff) can’t hold nearly as much water as gas blended with ethanol. Normally if you mix water and gas, most of the water phase separates and since water is heavier than gas it settles to the bottom of the tank, the fuel filter and the under the hood fuel bowl. But with Ethanol blended gas the water is fully dissolved into the gas and will be carried throughout the entire fuel system and finally exits the engine as water vapor in the exhaust. That’s all well and good while your engine is running but if your engine is not running bad things will happen. Warmer E10 gas can hold more water than colder E10 gas. So if you are running on a warm day and the gas in your tank is water saturated (meaning its holding as much dissolved water as it can) and later your engine cools off then throughout your entire fuel system phase separation will occur (remember, cold E10 gas can’t hold as much water as warm E10 gas) and water that was once dissolved in the E10 gas will separate out. It’s effectively the same as the condensation process we see every day around us. Warm air at 100% RH (ie saturated) comes into contact with a cooler surface and the water vapor turns into liquid water undergoing a phase transition. Neat, huh?

The ethanol badness #2 is what had to have happened in my engines. How else can two fuel pumps seize from rust after sitting for only 1 week with fuel that has passed through not one but two water separators? Note that last week things cooled off quite a bit – hence the phase separation that took place throughout my fuel system.

And for the punch line, the Yamaha tech said that since this is a “fuel related problem” that it’s not covered under warranty. I am not quite sure how I feel about that. It seems to me that unless Yamaha modifies their warranty to specifically exclude Ethanol related failures that they would have to step up and fix it under warranty. If they did exclude ethanol caused failures we would all know to never use ethanol in our Yamahas. But seeing as their engines should be reliable when run on standard commercially available fuel I am leaning towards this being a problem they should fix?

If you are forced to switch to ethanol, do the following:
1. Buy a case of 10 micron fuel filters and keep them in your boat
2. Run your tanks dry. You can’t mix E10 gas with MTBE blended gas.
3. Change your fuel filters after your first tank of E10. Remember, Ethanol is a wonderful fuel system cleaner but all the crap it dislodges will wreak whatever havoc it can.
4. Store your boat with the fuel tanks 7/8 full. By minimizing airspace you will minimize the effects of condensation. Boats have vented fuel tanks, warm moist air comes in during the day and at night it hits the now colder sides of the fuel tank and condensates. So every day a little more water is added to your gas. By keeping your tank full you can minimize that.
5. If you see ANY water separating out of your gas in either your main filter or the under the hood fuel bowl then by definition your gas is fully saturated with water. That’s bad and will lead to things such as I have experienced, ie rusted and seized fuel pumps. You have to get rid of the water saturated gas ASAP. Best option might be to simply run the tanks down and refuel. But it could well be that the fuel you buy at the marina is already at 100% water saturation. I don’t know what advice to give here other than never buy Ethanol blended gas.

BOTTOM LINE
Ethanol blended gas is bad, bad, bad! Run, don’t walk, away from ethanol blended gas. Go way out of your way to find a source of non-ethanol gas. There is one where I live and that’s where I plan to buy all my gas going forward.

(ps – did I mention the fuel feed pump on a F225 costs $450 – that’s just parts, no labor;)
 

ocnslr

GreatGrady Captain
Joined
Jan 31, 2005
Messages
1,907
Reaction score
43
Points
48
Location
Fort Myers Beach, FL
Model
Islander
Very sorry to hear of your problems.

You note the 20-micron Sierra filters on the boat.

Yamaha has been recommending 10-micron fuel/water separators for several years, and it is unfortunate that the previous owner and/or maintenance techs let this go.

We have been using E-10 for quite some time. Just use the correct fuel/water separators, check them regularly, don't let your tank sit half-full, use Startron or similar additive, and go fishing.
 

ElyseM

GreatGrady Captain
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
949
Reaction score
54
Points
28
Location
highlands, nj
i've been using stabil with every refueling since we switched to e-10 in NJ and (knock wood (we do have grady's ya know)) no problems so far. i have f200's and the engines are well maintained with filters changed twice a year. service is done by techs so everything is looked into.

i agree that ethanol was a bad move from the beginning on many different levels. i get at least 10% worse mpg in my truck, it's caused the price on anything that is corn related to go up, and the most absurd thing as far as i'm concerned - we are using foodstuffs in place of oil (which last i checked, we aren't able to eat!). like everyone else, i've also read the articles professing that it takes more energy to make a gallon of ethanol than the output of the ethanol itself. i have no credentials to support or dispute that fact, but if true, somebody tell me why there hasn't been a groundswell of protest to get this policy turned around.
 

fishingFINattic

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 21, 2006
Messages
412
Reaction score
4
Points
0
Location
S.E. Ct
I went thru the same thing with my 265 express -

Boat was full of gas when I bought it (2 year old fuel)
Ran 200 gallons thru the boat and it ran like a top - added the E10 fuel and problem galore -

I ended up replacing all three fuel filters on each motor twice until the problem was fixed!
 

*26.8 Ilander

Active Member
Joined
Sep 20, 2008
Messages
30
Reaction score
0
Points
0
FUEL PUMP PROBLEMS

HELLO ALL,My fuel pump seems to be cloged (1999 evenruds).I pulled off the pump and atemted to blow throw it but she is jamed tight.im not a mechanic but before i order one (180.00 ) just wanted to get some feed back to any body that has had the same problem. thanks
 

NOTHING ELSE MATTERS

GreatGrady Captain
Joined
Jun 26, 2006
Messages
1,993
Reaction score
5
Points
38
Age
60
Location
LONG ISLAND NEW YORK
I've been using ethanol gas for at least two years, never had a problem, i always add startron and ring free with every fill up no matter what. Never had to change any filters in the middle of the season either.
 

choogenboom

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 19, 2008
Messages
108
Reaction score
2
Points
18
Location
Beaufort SC
26.8 Ilander - Do you have an electric fuel pump? If its clogged then it should still run on a bench. Does it?
 

BobP

GreatGrady Captain
Joined
Apr 27, 2005
Messages
4,744
Reaction score
6
Points
38
Location
Long Island, NY
Model
Sailfish
Mixing the two fuels together is the first problem, should use up as much as regular fuel before converting over to E10. The second problem is the alcohol being a good cleaner so it scrubs the scale in the tank that non E10 allowed to build, third probem, is affinity E10 has to moisture in the air.

E1O has been in use up here for about four years now in all fuel stations. The glass tanks in the old Bertrams in the marina were dissolving and jamming up the motor valves long before reading about it.

As was advised, a constant usage of fuel treatment, and don't mix the two fuels. And mandatory use of Racor or equal, fuel filter/water seperators.

In spit of all this protection up front, gel still forms downstream at the VST screen filter in the vapor seperators on the yamahas - requiring periodic cleaning or replacement.
 

seasick

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 19, 2008
Messages
9,531
Reaction score
1,420
Points
113
Location
NYC
fishingFINattic said:
I went thru the same thing with my 265 express -

Boat was full of gas when I bought it (2 year old fuel)
Ran 200 gallons thru the boat and it ran like a top - added the E10 fuel and problem galore -

I ended up replacing all three fuel filters on each motor twice until the problem was fixed!
In both instances mentioned the key info was that the boat sat for a long time (years in one case) with fuel in the tank. The ethanol didn't cause the problems, it exposed them. If gas sits for a long time, varnishes will develop that are alcohol soluble. Don't blame E10, blame the previous owner who didn't prep the boat for storage.
I hate to keep beating the issue to death but at my club, we haven't had an ethanol related failure this season.
 

Enough Already

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 30, 2005
Messages
284
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
Boca Raton, FL USA
Can anyone give me specifics on the type of Racors to purchase? I have a 2001 265 Express w/ spin on fuel filters. I'd like to get some bowls but unsure of which Racors to get.
 

NOTHING ELSE MATTERS

GreatGrady Captain
Joined
Jun 26, 2006
Messages
1,993
Reaction score
5
Points
38
Age
60
Location
LONG ISLAND NEW YORK
Enough Already said:
Can anyone give me specifics on the type of Racors to purchase? I have a 2001 265 Express w/ spin on fuel filters. I'd like to get some bowls but unsure of which Racors to get.

If your fuel filters are in the boat you are not suppose to use filters with bowls. It is not legal and CG would summon you for that and have them removed. When ever filters are located in the bildge(bildge is also the back space by the euro transom) is against the law to have filters with clear plastic bowls.
 

ocnslr

GreatGrady Captain
Joined
Jan 31, 2005
Messages
1,907
Reaction score
43
Points
48
Location
Fort Myers Beach, FL
Model
Islander
NOTHING ELSE MATTERS said:
If your fuel filters are in the boat you are not suppose to use filters with bowls. It is not legal and CG would summon you for that and have them removed. When ever filters are located in the bildge(bildge is also the back space by the euro transom) is against the law to have filters with clear plastic bowls.

No, you can have clear plastic bowls in those areas of an outboard powered boat. You just can't have them in any enclosed engine compartment.

Been running clear bowls with drains (and water sensor alarms) for three years. Numerous USCGA courtesy inspections, and two or three USCG boardings - with inspection.

Of course, I've been wrong before, so just let me know the CFR reference.

Brian
Master, Oceans, Steam, Motor & Sail, 1600-Tons
Chief Mate, Oceans, Unlimited Tonnage
 

fishingFINattic

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 21, 2006
Messages
412
Reaction score
4
Points
0
Location
S.E. Ct
seasick said:
fishingFINattic said:
I went thru the same thing with my 265 express -

Boat was full of gas when I bought it (2 year old fuel)
Ran 200 gallons thru the boat and it ran like a top - added the E10 fuel and problem galore -

I ended up replacing all three fuel filters on each motor twice until the problem was fixed!
In both instances mentioned the key info was that the boat sat for a long time (years in one case) with fuel in the tank. The ethanol didn't cause the problems, it exposed them. If gas sits for a long time, varnishes will develop that are alcohol soluble. Don't blame E10, blame the previous owner who didn't prep the boat for storage.
I hate to keep beating the issue to death but at my club, we haven't had an ethanol related failure this season.

You are absolutly correct here!

It was particulate from inside of the tank - varnish like - I have pictures - amazing - it clogged new racors in less than 6 hours!

Since this has been resolved (years ago) I have ran three full trouble free seasons!

Tim
 

fishingFINattic

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 21, 2006
Messages
412
Reaction score
4
Points
0
Location
S.E. Ct
I would like to add that I dont think prepping the fuel in my case would of made a differance - it really is just that E10 acted liked a cleaner scubbing the varnish off of the sides of the tank - this particulate clogged the filters. Once the tank was clean, no issues - just the initial change over from regular fuel to E10.
Tim
 

fishingFINattic

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 21, 2006
Messages
412
Reaction score
4
Points
0
Location
S.E. Ct
Enough Already said:
Can anyone give me specifics on the type of Racors to purchase? I have a 2001 265 Express w/ spin on fuel filters. I'd like to get some bowls but unsure of which Racors to get.

There are a few differant ones - and it is my understanding only one will work for our 265 Express (unless you want to change the aluminum head).

I went to Grady to buy the big blue spin on 10 micron and asked them - they had them right in stock - first purchase was for the entire kit including clear bowl - now I just by the filter -

I can get you the racor number on filter if it will help.

Tim
 

seasick

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 19, 2008
Messages
9,531
Reaction score
1,420
Points
113
Location
NYC
NA2P said:
If your fuel filters are in the boat you are not suppose to use filters with bowls. It is not legal and CG would summon you for that and have them removed. When ever filters are located in the bildge(bildge is also the back space by the euro transom) is against the law to have filters with clear plastic bowls.
_________________

Correct statement for inboards, not outboards.

Pete
I asked Grady about this issue and they said " We are not familiar with Racor products" I suspect they are playing safe.
I was told by a marine inspector that plastic bowl filters are not permitted below deck for any boats, inboard or outboard.
It is claer that they don't meet the flame arresting requirements of the CG but I can't find written documentation that specifically syas that those flame arresting specs apply to outboards. Why doesn't somebody contact Racor. Oh, don't use their web site, the email 'contact us' option doesn't work.
 

BobP

GreatGrady Captain
Joined
Apr 27, 2005
Messages
4,744
Reaction score
6
Points
38
Location
Long Island, NY
Model
Sailfish
If some of you guys don't want plastic bowls, then get the metal ones.
The idea of this thread is to protect the expensive motors(s). My bilge has been inspected by the coast guard aux several times, they wanted to see it, they like it. The plastic bowls by the way are every substantial in construction.

Grady saying they have not heard of Racor is poor customer service, and insulting to an informed owner (like me). Yamaha must be forcing Grady by contractual agreement to use Yamaha filters, just like Yamaha motors, once they became available for sale - no other reason for such an irresponsible pathetic reply from anyone employed by Grady or a dealer selling or servicing Grady products.

Racor is a leader in the filter industry for a very long time now, longer than some of you have been alive, long before Yamaha ever put their label on and sold a fuel filter / water seperator made by someone else.

Inboard engines create a fire hazard all by themselves since they burn fuel, so the engine fire would then melt the bowls and more fuel added to the fire. The fire will also melt the metal filter cans and bowls - just takes longer, not to mention all the fuel lines, squeeze bulbs, brass fuel valves and the like.

Unless some idiot marine service mechanic mounts the racor three inches from the inboard's exhaust manifold, then it's a different story.

I have no engine in my bilge to start a fire, and if a battery explodes worse case it is far enough away from the racors to do no damage.

The safety of anyone who boards my boat is never compromised. I'm fully responsible for the equipment and condition of my boat, no one else.
I won't allow anyone else that responsibility, ever.
 

BobP

GreatGrady Captain
Joined
Apr 27, 2005
Messages
4,744
Reaction score
6
Points
38
Location
Long Island, NY
Model
Sailfish
And don't let anyone who sells you a filter say a bigger filter is better, bigger has nothing to do with the filtration spec (in microns of particulate size measurement), only the filtration media capacity, before it fills up and either bypasses or clogs.

There is plenty of media in the regular sized to get the season done, don't need the supersized or "extra value" size.

If you know how to work around gasoline safely, saw a a spent filter can in half one day and look inside, what do you see ? I always cut the filters open to find on what's coming out of my gas tank, the only way to know.

If you do find the media is being crushed, twisted, and collapsing with debris - and even bypassing, you may have taken on a contaminated fuel load from the fill up station, then you need to change the media more often until conditions return to normal.

Use any 10 micron gas filter / water seperator you want, I have no affiliation with any manufacturer. This will give your motor(s) the best chance to continue running trouble free as long as practical.

Then instead of doing the beautiful boat kissee face thing and photo op at the show with the Grady guys and at the Yamaha display with the F350 like it's Marilyn Monroe reincarnated, complain about why the same fuel used in your car needs squat to work fine, complain, complain, complain, complain. It's the only way we can get the manufacturers or legislators to force the manufactuers to install closed fuel systems in our boats to end the problem once and for all.

If you were standing next to me at the show when the last word you heard (from me) was: don't give me any of that crap about marine engine stuff", you would cringe and shy away. Instead, you should stand right there and support the heck out of closing the damn fuel system.

CLOSE THE DAMNED FUEL SYSTEM
CLOSE THE DAMNED FUEL SYSTEM

Practice out loud before going to the show - be an advocate for changing the design to bring about a new day, one where you never have to worry again about the fuel screwing up the mega dollar motors.
 

choogenboom

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 19, 2008
Messages
108
Reaction score
2
Points
18
Location
Beaufort SC
Just found this - note the comment that no fuel stabilizer has proven they prevent phase separation.

"3. Alcohol absorbs water. Water which comes from the atmosphere, in time, can contaminate the fuel, then separate from the alcohol (called phase separation) which can be problematical. Mercury Marine on its website says that “there is no practical additive that can prevent phase separation.” Several additives on the market today claim to be a solution to phase separation, but have not produced 3rd-party testing results to the satisfaction of BoatTEST.com. During the season, fuel tanks should be kept full to reduce condensation in the tank. In the winter, the tank should be emptied. If it can not be emptied, it should be filled and a fuel stabilizer should be used in the proper dosage. "