282 HDPI vs 4 Stroke

[Grog]

You might be able to get a download of the info on the 225 and see how it was run. Unfortuntely if the maintenance work can't be documented by a dealer I wouldn't trust all of it being done.

Since everybody wants 4S nowadays, you can probably talk the HPDI owner down. Personally I don't mind being able to hear the engine at idle and the smoke doesn't bother me (at least not enough to drop $30K). Take a ride in both boats and bring the Admiral if she will be going out too and see what happens.

You will notice 300 pounds hanging off the back of a Sailfish it's not going to throw off the whole boat but it's noticable.

 

[BobP]

Gradyfish 22 -

Why did you mis-state the Yamaha directives on the use of the expensive Ringfree and Yamaha 4 stroke Fs?
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Most people with the larger boats don't trailer them back and forth to the ramp. most keep them moored, in the hands of the marina mechanics and the rules by contract.

The contracts prohibit much of the DIYer stuff I can do im my driveway, changing 4 stroke oil/filter at the dock during season is necessary, working with flammable materials is risky, for the usually insurance reasons, not to mention service dept revenue annual goals. And one drop of oil spilled in the waterway is a federal offense, I hear getting the filter out can be messy.

Suggest getting Marina pre-approval for such DIYer work, some marinas care, some don't. The marinas that do - can and will terminate your contract for such violations. Oil changes are not emergencies, and we are not talking about waxing your own boat.

They have plenty of people on the waiting list for your slip.

 

[gradyfish22]

Marina's in my area allow you to do basic work as long as you notify them that you are doing so.

As for the ring free, that was my mistake, I knew I would leave something out, although with the HPDI's my tech dealer recommended using a slightly higher dose since some guys experienced clogged injectors and had more burn on their plugs. I never had that issue since I used a higher dose. All the guys in my marina were doing the same and we never had an issues. I've had many discussions with Yammie techs and they all agree that the recommended dose for 4 strokes is over kill since they do not have the same carbon issues since they do not burn oil. It still should be used since it flushes the system, and is still good for the engine itself.

 

[CJBROWN]

>snip
... and an off idle gear lash that sounds like rattling, these are strickly 4 stroke issues - and for Yamaha V6s as I recall - read about them at THT.
>snip

You know, I was thinking about this again and no one mentioned it, but yeah, my F150 chatters annoyingly at idle on occasion. It started when I swapped the stock aluminum prop for a stainless. I invariably bump the throttle to get 800r's or so and it stops. It's only in gear so it has to be backlash in the gear setup, and the heavier prop sets up the chatter.

Bob, my calc for 10% less for the smokers was simply a general recommendation, an opinion. Market demand and asking prices for the two motor styles seems to point to that number in my head. Again, no offense to you 2-stroke lovers. Afterall, that's what I grew up with. They're just going out of style, not because there's anything wrong with them, but agencies like CARB and the regs they create, are influencing the general populations opinion and preferrence for everything four stroke. Sad but true.

 

[BobP]

On the particluar Saifish thread you stated 10%, that would amount to some $6K difference in price between the two boats, higher for the 4 stroke equipped boat.

How many 55 gal drums of Yamalube can one buy with $6K? And how many lifetimes of ownership is it going to take to use it up to realize the extra 10% for the 4stroke equipped Sailfish to break even ?

The gear lash rattling marbles-in-a-bucket noise I read about was on the V6s - on Andy's thread. Not a warranty issue, no fix, live with the noise.
The only malady on the F150 was a noisy balance shaft nylon gear engagement - a warranty repair.

I like both 2 and 4 stroke, but will buy (have bought) the most engine I can get for the least costs, all around. I don't evaluate weight as more is better, but less is better. Same for size, bigger is not better to me, just gets in the way of my fishing lines.

There is no 4 stroke competition today for the 200 HPDI, even some 10 years after it was introduced.

If one runs the engines typical hours annually as I do, and buys a higher priced 4 stroke instead, guess how much $$ per gallon of Yamalube in added puchase price, the owner will have to pay for the privalege of not using Yamalube ?
Yes, it's true.

Up here in the NE, 2 star CARB is treated no differently than 3 star. Makes sense, considering the night and day difference in emissions between conventional 2 stroke and modern 2 stroke design.

 

[gradyfish22]

My 22 Seafarer w/ a 200hp HPDI burned around $500 in roughly 40 inshore trips. With twins, if you use the boat that much you could be looking at close to $1000 a year in oil. At that rate and those above figures it would take 6 years to repay itself if that 10% figure is true. If you plan to keep the boat a while, the 4 strokes would make more sense, they will pay for themselves over time and you will not have to check oil levels every 10 seconds. It really all depends on how often you will plan to use the boat and what is more important to you both now, and down the road. Also, it is important to be comfortable with what you have on the back of your boat, even if it may cost less to operate, it may not be what you feel comfortable with, everyone has their own preferences.

 

[BobP]

Who checks their 2 stroke oil tank level every 10 seconds ?

Complete the figures -

You were burning $500 in Yamalube in a season, say that's 20 gallons, on a 22 ft boat with a single 200 HPDI ?

That's a lot of oil, so you burned 1500 gals or more of fuel in one season to go along with it ?

That's nearly twice my fuel usage for a 25 ft. Sailfish for a season, with twin 200s.

You are not a typical owner, or your oil rod needs adjustment, or you way overpaid on the Yamalube.
I know West at one time was selling it for $37 per gallon, hope you don't shop there.

With the "10% rule" I reponded to, a typical owner pays more per gallon cost of Yamalube in higher purchase price & maintenace costs for the 4 stroke, for the privalege of not having to use Yamalube, than I do for using it.

And don't forget to put the $6K in some investment, even stinking CDs can get you 5% APY. That's good for another 3 cases of Yamalube per year.

 

[jehines3]

Another reason for old 2 smokers, I use Penzoil XLF from Wally World at ~$8.50/gal. Burning at 50:1 on my Johnsons I ran through roughly 12 gallons this season over approx 70 engine hours/motor (140 combined), If I ran 4 strokes I would have had an oil change in there somewhere.

$8.50*12 gal=$102.00+Tax in oil

If you guys on four strokes are doing oil changes, how much per change per motor in materials (oil, filters, disposal, etc)?

 

[Grog]

1500 gallons is $5000, and around 250 hours. Thats a bit more than the average user. Especially someone in the NE.

 

[CJBROWN]

>snip

If you guys on four strokes are doing oil changes, how much per change per motor in materials (oil, filters, disposal, etc)?

About $50 for 5 qts of amsoil 4Ccyle-outboard spec and a yamaha filter. A lot of guys run Mobile1 but i think the marine-spec oils have an additional anti-corrsion package.

I run amsoil PI in lieu of ring free, techron would also suffice for the 4Cycle.

 

[BobP]

Grog, I was thinking it about it some more. may be more than a oil rod setting.

If he's not SeaTowing on the side, he may have lost the oil rod altogether, just a clip keeps it attached to the pump. The HPDI pump would go into fail safe mode, using a mess of oil. That would also explain his prior complaint about oil smell and checking oil every 10 seconds.
It's acting like more of a pig than my old Johnnies with the wooden legs.

 

[gradyfish22]

Boat had a little over 200 hours put on it, and 2 gallons of oil should not have been calculated in there because they were purchased but never used, so oil price was $46 lower then I had stated before. I pay $23 a gal.
150 hours is what is considered avg use, so yes my use was higher. That is regardless of where the boat is used. I also do not have a SS prop on that boat, so I do not get as high of an efficiency as I could, but using the boat how I had, it made more sense to run aluminum over SS. Therefore, I burned more fuel and oil then others who have a SS prop. It is also not a SV2 hull, so the boat itself is not as fuel efficient as newer SV2 hulls.
BobP...I did not mean 10 seconds literally, I was trying to make a point that you must check your oil level a lot more often on a 2 stroke. And no I am not Sea Towing on the side....and it is not a rod, the engine has been tuned every 100-150 hours since new and I have made sure the tech who is a clsoe friend checks the oil rod.

 

[jehines3]

$23.00 oil yowsa!
Burned at 100:1 would add $0.23 per gallon of fuel. Given most average about 70:1 would add $0.33 per gallon of running fuel. The new two strokes may be nice and I love my neighbors E-tec, but he's buying $45 oil (XD100 I think), that is insane. I'm an avid two stroke guy and I can work on them, these four strokes are not for the average DIY with an average set of tools. That said, If my marlin could take twin 250 Yammie 4's I'd do it, but I think I'd rather not roll the dice on my 18 year old transom. jh