282 Sailfish Fuel Tank Corrosion?

[jstavrakas]

I am running a 2001 282 Sailfish with 200 HP 2001 HPDI Yamaha engines. Last year, the filters in the engine fuel pumps became clogged with a fine white powder which may be aluminum oxide from the fuel tank. I hauled and had the filters replaced and the boat ran fine the rest of the season. That happened last year in July which was approximately 4 1/2 seasons since I first changed out the filters (after 350 hours of run time?). I first changed out the filters as a proactive measure after running the boat for one season due to the ethanol fuel issue (I bought the boat used in Nov. of 2005). It happened again this year in July after running the engines only 70 hours +/- since the last filter change out.

I have been using 10 micron Racor filters and this dust seems to get past them. My mechanic seems to be right on top of this issue with the engines. His questions are more around what is happening in the fuel tank.

My questions are 1) Has anyone had similar problems with their boat and if so did you figure out a remedy? 2) If the fuel tanks need to be replaced, can they be replaced without cutting up the deck and about how much did it cost (I have two tanks - one 150 gal tank and one 70 gal tank? I will probably just replace the filters annually for now but am concerned the problem may become worse.

 

[steveg]

I would call Grady White, tech support, and also pose them that question. I had an 85 Trophy Pro with original tanks when I donated the boat last year and they were original and not leaking. Also, not sure where you are located, but in Maryland, Ocean City, several marinas are selling non ethanol mid grade. The best thing you can do for your motors and fuel system is to get that crap (ethanol) out of your boat. Good luck. Steve

 

[reelserious]

Most likely the issue is the ethanol scrubbing the oxidation off your tanks. I have a 2000 Sailfish with 200 HPDI's. The big problem with ethanol, aluminum tanks and HPDI's is the VST filter clogs. I had mine cleaned three times over three seaons before the tanks seemed to be scrubbed (I hope). Besides cleaning the VSTs and seperators, there is not much more you can do as far as I know until the tanks are scrubbed clean.

 

[jstavrakas]

Thanks for the response. It makes sense. I guess we have been using E10 ethanol gasoline for about five years now. I wonder why I am having this trouble only now. Have you seen any improvement in the frequency of the vst filter clogging indicating the oxidation has been "scrubbed" from the tanks?

 

[reelserious]

I don't know how to answer your question on why it took 5 years. The old fuel (MTBE) caused the scaling and E-10 scrubs the tanks.

As far as your second question, the interval seems to be getting better. I am on my second season without having the VST's cleaned. I am hoping I am past the problem by now. Time will tell.

 

[seasick]

Thanks for the response. It makes sense. I guess we have been using E10 ethanol gasoline for about five years now. I wonder why I am having this trouble only now. Have you seen any improvement in the frequency of the vst filter clogging indicating the oxidation has been "scrubbed" from the tanks?

I have a hard time explaining why this issue would pop up now due to the ethanol 'scrubbing' the tank. More often than not, the alcohol dissolves tank varnishes and that happens as soon as alcohol fuels are used.
I wonder if something else is breaking down. I will have to do some research I guess.
Have you drained the gas filter ( Yami or Racor) into a glass jar to see if the filter is trapping the same debris?
Have you changed or gone to a different fuel additive?
I have read stories about some VST tanks themselves breaking down into fine particles but if I remember correctly, that was 'newer' models.

Keep us posted.

 

[jstavrakas]

The Racor filters were clean. I guess I will just run the boat for now and see what happens. Last year we did the same thing in July and ran well for the rest of the season. I will change out the filters again over the winter if I get through this season OK. I did contact Grady White and am waiting to hear back.

 

[seasick]

The Racor filters were clean. I guess I will just run the boat for now and see what happens. Last year we did the same thing in July and ran well for the rest of the season. I will change out the filters again over the winter if I get through this season OK. I did contact Grady White and am waiting to hear back.

I would expect to see the crud in the Racors. Of course thay are 10micron and the VST screen works out to about 2 micron. Perhaps you could try to replace the 10 micron with 2 micron filters and see if that trap the gunk.
During the off season, when you do the VST, take a good look at the inside of the VST tank. I am curious.

 

[Grog]

Problems this far down the road is odd. Have you ever seen water in the bottom of the Racor? Do you always get fuel from the same place? Your problem may have come from the marina who sold you a dirty batch of gas.

 

[jstavrakas]

I have never seen water in the bottom of the Racor filters. I always get fuel from the marina I keep my boat at and they seem to get a lot of business so I expect the fuel is fresh.

Has anyone heard of problems related to the use of Startron fuel stabilizer? I use it towards the end of the season when I am not running the boat as much and when I top off the tanks before winterizing. My mechanic then typically adds Yamaha fuel stabilizer beforee winterizing the engine.

 

[bc282]

Don't rule out fuel lines as possible issue.
Perhaps get the "white" stuff chemically analyzed for composition which may point to where it is originating?

 

[seasick]

I have never seen water in the bottom of the Racor filters. I always get fuel from the marina I keep my boat at and they seem to get a lot of business so I expect the fuel is fresh.

Has anyone heard of problems related to the use of Startron fuel stabilizer? I use it towards the end of the season when I am not running the boat as much and when I top off the tanks before winterizing. My mechanic then typically adds Yamaha fuel stabilizer beforee winterizing the engine.

It is possible that the Startron is disolving something that ethanol doesn't. There is a lot of Naptha in Startron and perhaps that is reacting with something either in the tank or the fule delivery system. It could be reacting with anothet additive too if you added any.
Personally, I use Stabil only and only for the winter. I add it during the last trip before hauling to get it mixed in well. Of course I add Ringfree during the season, 1 OZ per 10 gal of gas.

 

[jstavrakas]

I used Startron at the end of the season only - when I am not running the boat as much. Then when my mechanic winterizes the engines, he adds Yamaha fuel stabilizer. This could be the answer - the problem shows up in early July once I been running offshore - long runs at 4200 + rpms. I will stop using the Startron and stick only to the Yamaha stabilizer and see if that makes the difference.

 

[Tucker]

Those HPDI's are much more sensitive to dirty fuel than my OX66's. I believe there are about 10 filter screens at various locations on the fuel system. The first thing I would do is replace the Yamaha 10-micron filters with Racor 2-micron filters. Since I've done this I have never had the VST off to clean. Replace the filters twice a season at about $20 each and I bet you'll be fine. Keep the dirt away from the motors.

 

[ROBERTH]

I have been using Startron for years on every tank. Just got the Grady last year and HPDI's had only 160 hours on them, so been running with Startron and Ring free religiously. Then found out late last year, Yamaha had a new Ring Free formula now called Ring Free Plus.

The Plus is now configured to help resolve the white powder oxidation issue.

So far, I have 250+ hours now, no issues. I switched over to 2 micron filters from Sim Yamaha and as stated, use the Startron and Ring Free Plus and so far, so good.

Will likely pull the VST's this winter and replace and see how they were doing all this time. Hope the new Ring Free Plus formulation is the fix to the issue lots of folks have been having. Fingers are crossed!

Here is a link to all I could find out there on it. When it first came out, they had a great detailed document explaining how it was designed to prevent the oxidation and white powder build up, but no matter how hard I try to search now, I can't find that document.

http://www.yamaha-motor.com/outboard/ap ... etail.aspx


I did find this on the Yamaha FAQ's in regards to affects of Ethanol fuels:

We have two fuel additives: Ring Free PLUS and Fuel Stabilizer & Conditioner PLUS. The “PLUS” includes reformulations for our standard Ring Free and Fuel Stabilizer & Conditioner. The Ring Free Plus protects against the corrosive affects of sulfur salts in E10 (10% ethanol-blended fuel) on electronics parts and fittings in the fuel system. It is highly recommended for all electronic fuel injected engines (EFI). The Fuel Stabilizer & Conditioner PLUS helps protect fuel system metals affected by E10, helps to prevent fuel oxidation that results in gums and varnishes and keeps fuel fresh and potent up to year of storage. Fuel Stabilizer & Conditioner PLUS is recommended to be used at every gas fill up, not just for storage.

 

[BobP]

The white powdery stuff has been lab identified as aluminum sulfate, as I recall reading some time back over at THT.

I converted to racor 2 micron filters and the white stuff is still found in the VST filter, but never enough not to last one season fine. The VST filter is cleanable so if you do it yoursef is basically free except for time.
I reuse the O ring 3 times and well as VST filter. just be careful not to pinch O ring going back. I do the last filter of the three every other season. Did the first one only one time.

I cut open the 2 micron racor element end of one season and it was free of white powder which indicates to me the material is being created after the boat's tanks and not from marina tank or fuel source. It is occurring under the cowl, theories suggest the higher heat and/or siting in the sun when boat sits when not in use - using ethanol fuel. My tanks are originals.

Some drain the VST tank before using motor if sitting long periods in high heat regions.
I'd suggest cleaning filter end of EVERY season and leaving VST tank empty off season, be sure to squeeze bulb the motor full in the spring before atempting to start since electric pump will be running dry until VST tank fills. It takes a long time to start motor otherwise too.

 

[Tucker]

I'm anxious to read reports about how the Plus in the new Ring Free does with aluminum sulfate. Intersting about it developing after the fiters. Has any thought been given to it starting in the VST?? Our VST's are cast aluminum the fuel tanks are fabricated steel.

Robert, am I reading correctly that Yamaha recommends using Ring Free Plus and the Stabilizer & Conditioner with every fill up?? Is that another $40 quart of stuff I have to buy?

 

[BobP]

Tucker, I believe Yamaha changed the Ring Free product formula to also include a conditioner as I read the labels now all the same.

I'm almost sure it was aluminum sulfate, but my memmory is not what it used to be, none the less the insides of my two VST tanks are perfect, but there is that wisp of a material so fine I can't even feel it, shows itself on the high gas line of the float too in the VST tank. Meaning it floats on top of fuel. Yamaha came up with call on it as I recall, said it was the effects of the ethanol, as reproted in THT a few years back.

Since I had no white stuff inside my racors and my fuel cells are twenty years old, it seems to be related to something with heat over time or galvanic action under the cowl, but not in boat. The fuel cells never get that hot under deck even in blazing sun, unlike VST tank under cowl especially when boat sits unused in direct sun. Fuel gets used up pretty fast when running, relatively speaking to size of VST tank.

The racors would have shown traces of the white stuff IMHO, not a trace of it. I also stopped using Startron for a year, same thing no change, so I figure Startron not causing it. When I decided to run two years on same VST filter, had the fuel starvation problem immediately. And not a trace of the white stuff in the first low pressure pleated filter under the cowl, it's not 2 micron. I never drained the VST tanks so fuel sat a long time, and I didn't get the boat out until late in 2nd season. I typically use motors way less than 100 hrs per year.

If my boat sat OUT of the sun, I wonder if the white stuff would form (?).

Phase separated ethanol has never been detected in my system, that's why I have the racor clear bowls to see each outing for color changes vs. fresh fuel, very light in color. I saw specimens of it once off the internet, darker in color as I recall, and it was at the bottom of a clear 2 liter soda bottle. It's very corrosive and I can see how it can wreck the alloy VST tank and boat's alloy cells, and more. Who knows if ethanol really has just 10% alcohol or it can vary to higher, and how much water is in our fuel from station and in our own cells??

So I run Ringfree and Stabil marine formula, both 1 once per 10 gallon, per label, all year long.

That's it, so far so good this year.

 

[BobP]

By the way, I've only heard of aluminum and some modles with (?) poly fuel cells in smaller Gradys, not steel, and steel would have to be stainless I would say. Old Bertrams had glass tanks that dissolved and gummed up motors thanks to ethanol when first appearing on Long Island about a decade ago. Hit my buddys boat, he cut open and and relined with new glass.

 

[Tucker]

Sorry, I thought our tanks were galvanized steel. There was an interesting read in Boat US months ago about myths with ethanol. Don't recall that aluminum sulfate was mentioned. Sure sounds relevent. New FI inboard gas engines have a VST and we don't seem to hear as many problems. Interesting theory about the heat though...