3 batteries to 2

[family affair]

Long story short - I have not. I was able to revive my lead acid batteries with a new smart charger, but will likely need to make a change at the end of this season.
I've researched extensively issue #1. Food for thought: if your starboard engine battery bank is setting off low voltage alarms, it is possible those 2 batteries can draw more current than your alternator is capable of producing like that of a LiPo. Ive asked several reputable sources about outboard alternators having the ability to run at max output while current limiting and the answer was yes. In case they were wrong, having the DC to DC chargers would be nice insurance.
At this point the way I would incorporate LiPo would be by having a lead acid starting battery for each engine. They are dirt cheap these days and proven. I would isolate the 3rd battery for the house with a 125 ah Ionic LiPo and use the auxiliary charging leads off each engine to a DC to DC charger. However, I haven't spent the time to understand how to change the wiring to make this work.
Please let me know what you end up doing. I hope to make the change in the future.
Oh and for issue #2, I haven't read anything about that one. Please share a link to the info if you have one.

 

[Sardinia306Canyon]

Dang, i hoped i could lern from your installation
I am still unsure to pull all 3 AGM, use them in my farming equipment and install 3 LiFePo or just pull the second Starbord AGM,
change the electrical system to triple battery setup (what i have in this moment absolutely no idea how to do that on a GW) and use the biggest LiFePo i can fit in the space of the AGM.

Not sure if the auxilary charge cable from both motors will work and be useful
1° you will make a bridge between both outboards, not sure if thats good (except the charger has 2 galvanic isolated inputs)
2° not sure if when they are connected to 2 inputs and f.e. send 10A per engine when trolling if the DC-DC charger will transform it to 20A (what would obiviously a good thing).
The charging lead from only one engine is probably better and safer,
but i'm not 100% sure about that as i never run in this problem.
All my boats had either 1 engine, one or two batteries, or then 2 engines and 4 batteries (2 x engine and 2 x house)

Issue #2 BMS Shutoff
Cheap House LiFePo batteries have the BMS to switch the battery off if something is pulling more than nnn Amps, thats why you can't use them to start the engine or other applications where power draw is above 50 or 100A
LiFePo Starter Batteries have same BMS, but they switch off at much higher loads, 200 or 300A
Now, i am not absolutely sure about that but i guess it can be a issue:
Lets imagine that both Lead-Acid starter batteries die suddenly and you turn the parallel switch to get extra power from the LiFePo house battery.
Honestly i have no idea how much my F300 starter pull when cranking but i can imagine it's more than 100A (even for a short time). This 100+A would make the BMS to switch off the Battery to protect the LiFePo cells from overload (what is correct) but then the parallel would not work. If one starter battery from either outboard is ok and can start one outboard then it could be used in parallel to crank the other outboard with the dead battery.

Just to exclude this hypothesis i would buy and install a starter LiFePo who is able to deliver enough amps to crank the outboard.

Chris

 

[family affair]

1⁰ I have not investigated if that can be an issue. I thought I read about this being ok in another thread on a different forum.
BMS cut off is a non issue on the Ionic dual purpose battery. It is a 125ah starting battery.

 

[SkunkBoat]

I have been using both Aux charging cables to a separate House Bank of two 24DC since 2018. This was with Yammies OX66 and now Zuke DF200APs.
The leads go to one positive and negative point as they are parallel and technically ONE battery.
The motors each have their own 24M starting battery.
The ProMariner 3 bank charger keeps them all winter. I don't use the charger in water unless I am not using the boat...which is never...

A parallel pair of 24DC lead batteries runs my VHF,MFD,sonar, nav lights, LED spreaders and LED UW from dusk to dawn, engines off, 100 miles out.
Stereos with amps are battery killers. Listen to the waves and the pilot whales blowing...

You mentioned things blipping when starting. You should separate the House from the Starboard Starting Battery.
Also check for green corroded connections from the battery all the way to the power plugs on electronics.
Especially blade fuses and fuseholders. AND the House red button breaker...which you should throw away and replace with a switchable MRCB when you isolate the House from start.

https://www.greatgrady.com/threads/new-battery-config-for-265.25744/

 

[Sardinia306Canyon]

BMS cut off is a non issue on the Ionic dual purpose battery. It is a 125ah starting battery.

Good, then it should work

The leads go to one positive and negative point as they are parallel and technically ONE battery.

Yeah, you are right and it should not matter if there is one or two batteries as they are parallel.

Well, then i guess one of this Starter batteries with charge limiter i found online would do the trick without the DC DC charger.

Anyone has a idea how i can eliminate the house +12V from the starboard twin battery bank and attach it to the "new" single house battery, whatever battery it is. Just moving the cable going to the house bus bars or something more complicated?

I guess i have to pull new Aux wires from both engines to the battery as they are not needed in the current GW setup.

Forgive me the questions but this boat has a lot of cables as it has a lot of electronics, including a Victron 3 bank charger (but only 2 banks connected) and a huge Victron 1800W 220V Inverter the old owner had installed to feed a capsule coffee machine and sandwich maker sitting on the small "desk" on the side of the toilet.
As i don't have shore power on my slip and don't need 220V for coffee and/or sandwich maker probably just eliminate it.
Also, as the space on the wall above the batteries is occupied by the inverter, but i believe i could use it to mount my GSD26 Blackbox.

Chris

 

[SkunkBoat]

I am not looking at your manual but probably there is a 6 gauge red wire from the House red button breaker to the FEED terminal of the Stbd battery switch.
That wire gets removed from the starboard switch and goes to the new House bank. Replace the red button with an MRCB so you can turn off the house.
The 6 gauge black wire needs to move to the House bank too. Then you need to provide charging to th house via Aux cables or ACR.

Your boat may have a different original setup than mine. Possibly multiple red buttons and switches right next to each other.
It may have a DC distribution panel with breakers?

 

[Sardinia306Canyon]

Thanks SB
I will check next time and make some photos of the battery compartment with all cables and stuff ex owner installed there.

I will probably not touch the GW Battery Panel on the transom and install a additional house battery and parallel switch in the battery compartment under the dash. Or a hidden electronic battery switch.

Chris

 

[family affair]

Chris, did you ever pull the trigger on any of this?
My old crusty DC batteries managed to make it thru the season - barely.
I'm considering a new plan, but need some questions answered. The plan:

• Buy a new starting battery for the starboard engine. Port is new
• Buy a 125ah Lipo and isolate it for the house.

Questions:

• Does the starting/charging lead from a df200ap provide all of the available electrical current or is it split with the other charging lead I'm not yet using?
• Am I better off buying charging leads for both engines to supply the Lipo, or is it safer and more cost effective to buy to Mini Blue Sea ACRs and run them to the Lipo from each starting battery?
• I'd love to see a wiring diagram that enables me to use my existing on off switches and not add another switch. Is this possible?

 

[Sardinia306Canyon]

Chris, did you ever pull the trigger on any of this?

Nope, not yet, but in the next months when i am back in Sardinia and my a few days old knee prothesis is working well.
I will have a big upgrade as i will install new outboards and a Trolling Motor with a 36V battery and that makes the electric upgrade more complicated.

• Does the starting/charging lead from a df200ap provide all of the available electrical current or is it split with the other charging lead I'm not yet using?
  Not 100% sure but in general each lead deliver half of the advertised Amps; 50% battery cable and 50% aux lead.
  I will need to verify that for the new DF300AP i will install and you should do the same for your DF200AP. However, the way to cable that is usual battery cable/s to starter battery/s and the Acc Lead to the house battery. In case of a LiFePo house battery it's recommended to use a 12V DC-DC converter between the Aux Lead and the LiFePo to limit max charge amps to aprox 50A.
• Am I better off buying charging leads for both engines to supply the Lipo, or is it safer and more cost effective to buy to Mini Blue Sea ACRs and run them to the Lipo from each starting battery?
  I have no experience with ACR or VSR thingies and i will avoid using them as i prefer to have manual operated battery switches.
  As above, connect the thick Suzuki battery cables to the starter batteries and then pull the Aux Lead from the engine to the DC-DC converter and from there to the LiFePo. Use the reasonable biggest and correct sized aux lead cable diameter from outboard to DC-DC converter and then to battery. I have actually 1 Victron SmartShunt for the house/stbd engine battery and a second for the port engine battery, so i can see the state of charge and how fast they charge.
• I'd love to see a wiring diagram that enables me to use my existing on off switches and not add another switch. Is this possible?
  I made a wiring diagram for my future setup but it's complicated so it may confuse you more than it's helpful.
  You basically need to add a additional battery switch for the aux lead, either a ON-OFF model or a OFF-1-2-ALL model to be able to divert the charge to the different batteries and /or put them in parallel.
  Let me see if i can make a diagram how i would do it on your boat, with 20 staples in my knee skin i have enough time to do that.

Chris

 

[SkunkBoat]

The alternator produces a max of 44A per spec of my DF200APs. That is the total available. The state of the batteries determines which are drawing the current. If they are fully charged they draw (practically) nothing. After you start the motor, the starting battery will draw until charged. If you run the house down, the House will draw through the Aux cable until charged. Its not a 50/50 thing.
The Aux charging is basically a diode that allows current to be drawn from alternator to House battery but not from House battery to alternator and the starting battery. It ISOLATES the House battery.
When you do that you need a new switch or switchable breaker to turn House ON/OFF. It can't be connected to the original switches or it won't be isolated.

In case someone chimes in...
yes, the HOUSE circuit will be always be drawing current for everything that is running. Most of that current will come from the battery. over time the battery will recharge.

The motors will always be drawing current for their ECM when running. The start battery "holds up " the 12V so it does not dip when the House draws from the alternator.

There is an element of time involved in this whole process of charging and providing a source to loads.

 

[family affair]

Chris, I wish you a speedy and full recovery. I've had some major work done over the years. No fun!
The more I read, the less I am concerned about the dc-dc charger to prevent excessive current draw. The Suzuki manual states that excessive electronic draw can drain the battery while the engine is running. No mention of damage to the engine electrical system. Suzuki also states the regulator is water cooled. Outboard Specialties also stated that one can't damage the electrical system from excessive current draw. The system is self limiting.
Skunk, if I'm understanding you correctly, either leg has the ability to pull the max available current off the magneto, but it will depend on what side has the highest demand? Does the system act like a built in ACR? The function of the system isn't 100% clear to me.
I asked about the mini ACRs because the cost is similar to the Suzuki charging lead. I wondered if this might give me some protection to the charging system if I connected one of each of these to the starting batteries and ran it to the Lipo and skipped the charging leads entirely. Then I would only have to add a switch to kill the house, but I'm not confident (yet)how to set that up and how the original switches would function.

 

[Sardinia306Canyon]

Thanks!
The situation about a DC-DC charger/converter is needed is unclear and many different believes and many use a LiFePo connected directly as it would be a lead-acid. The high ampere demand of LiFePo can damage car type alternators due overheating but it seems not a outboard type Magneto alternator, but may overheat other parts of the charging system like the water cooled rectifier. I have high respect of the knowledge of Outboard Specialities as i bought from them and know very well their immense knowledge about Suzukis so if they say that the charging system cant be burned then it's most liekly like that.
However, LiFePo batteries have their tricky parts like a higher charge voltage what may lead that the don't get fully charged. To make it more complicated; all depend on manufacturers BMS, how it is programmed and what it does (raising charging voltage for example)
Another advantage of the Victron Orion DC-DC Charger/converter Series is that you can program them to make the best out of the LiFePo battery plus he can be remote controlled and act as a kind of battery switch. The Victron Orion series is a inexpensive box what may protect the outboards charging system and i rather invest in them than do some damage to either the charging system or the LiFePo.
However one can decide to get a 200$ LiFePo and if it's not working as desired he buy another what would fit his needs.

Check in depth about LiFePo and ACR/VSR, they can work wrong as LiFePo will have no voltage drop while discharging down to about 10%, totally the opposite of lead-acid. And this voltage drop is where the ACR/VSR measure and decide that one battery is full, fuller than the other/s and what of them need to be charged and that may lead that the LiFePo never get charged as the ACR/ VSR think that LiFePo is full as voltage is same as lead-acid when full.

If you want the simplest drop-in solution then
connect each +12V outboard cable to one of the lead-acid starter batteries and obviously the -12V all together
connect the two +12v isolator leads together to the LiFePo and add a On-Off battery Switch in between
Then use the LiFePo's App to verify if battery get charged correctly, if no app available then install a Shunt in between to check LiFePo's health and state of charge.

If you wan't to be able to use the LiFePo for emergency start then you will need other battery switch and a Dual Purpose LiFePo wit at least 200A cranking power to avoid that high amps flowing when in parallel will make the BMS shut down the LiFePo due overcurrent protection.
Also, it is a not recommended practice to combine different chemistry batteries what leaves two options
a) use only LiFePo batteries for engines and for house
b) do not make a parallel option to parallel the LiFePo with the Lead-Acid for emergency starting

Chris

 

[Sardinia306Canyon]

Regarding the M-ACR

The German Bluesee dealer write

Hinweis
Dieses Laderelais ist für den Einsatz in Bordnetzen mit Bleisäure-Batterietypen (auch AGM und Gel) konzipiert.
Es überwacht Spannungspegel, die auf Bleisäure-Batterietypen abgestimmt sind und schaltet bei bestimmten Schwellwerten automatisch ein oder aus.
Von der Nutzung dieses Relais in Verbindung mit LiFe(Y)PO4-Batterien raten wir dringend ab, da die höhere Nennspannung bzw. der höhere Arbeitsspannungsbereich von Lithium-Batterien nicht mit den auf Bleisäuretypen ausgelgten Schwellwerten kompatibel ist.

Translated in English

This charging relay is designed for use in on-board electrical systems with lead-acid battery types (also AGM and Gel). It monitors voltage levels matched to lead-acid battery types and automatically turns on or off at certain thresholds. We strongly advise against the use of this relay in conjunction with LiFe(Y)PO4 batteries, as the higher nominal voltage or the higher working voltage range of lithium batteries is not compatible with the threshold values for lead-acid types.

Here is another article why ACR/VSR should not be used on a LiFePo setup
https://marinehowto.com/automatic-charging-relays/

Chris

 

[SkunkBoat]

tell me again what the advantage of LiFePO is for a typical twins start/house setup? weight-OK I give you that. not terribly relevant to a +25' boat.
Seems like a lot of trouble for nothing. If you were able to reduce it to a single battery then yes that would be worth it. Or maybe a single start(both) and a dedicated house.
Honestly, does each motor need its own start if you have a dedicated house (that can start in an emergency)? Hmmmmm gets me thinking.....

Absolutely an advantage for electric motor power- trolling motor-bow thruster- yes

 

[family affair]

Advantage:
*Long term reliability - how much can I draw down without damage?
*Power reserve health - my batteries started my engine just fine, but had little capacity beyond that. Exactly how much, who knows. When did it start to degrade? How often should I replace them?
*Power reserve transparency - how much is left or available
*High current draw capabilities. I'd like to run a microwave. I should be able to with a Lipo. PO couldn't get it to work with lead-acid but to be honest, I haven't investigated if the batteries were the issue.
*Removing batteries from the 270 is a major PIA. A lighter battery would be welcome.

As for 1 lead and 1 Lipo, I'm not sure if a lead-acid can take the double hit of 2 engines pulling roughly 700 amps consecutively in 5 seconds.
There is certainly more than one way to skin this cat. I'm just trying to find the best one - in my mind anyway.

 

[Sardinia306Canyon]

The biggest advantage of LiFePo is size and weight agains lead-acid where weight is on 25+ boats usually not a issue, but available space to install 1 100Ah LiFePo or to 100Ah lead-acid giving both about same usable Ah.

It is my understanding, believe and experience that a correct battery setup on outboard powered power boats is
1 starter battery for each engine and the possibility to parallel them
1 (or more) batteries for house with enough Ah to cover boats power request without the excessive use of engines or generator.

I have (same as Family Affair) stbd outboard and house battery hard wired in parallel what are in my case 180Ah but as they are AGM's the usable Ah is approx 90Ah, if i drain them more i risk to not be able to crank stbd outboard.
Using 3 dedicated batteries (2 x 95Ah AGM starter and 1 x 100h LiFePo house) gives me about same Ah as one starter and one house paralleled but without the risk to drain stbd outboard battery as both outboard starter batteries are separate.
I am sure i can fit a same size 100Ah LiFePo but will try to fit a 150Ah LiFePo to have most Ah for house use available.

The use of LiFePo for house use is definitively not "Seems like a lot of trouble for nothing." but can be of arguable benefit for some boaters with low power needs. Boats used almost exclusively for trolling don't have not enough power as the engine/s are always running and charging, boats used for sandbar with stereo on the whole day have usually lack of available power, same as for boats who do a lot of drift fishing (like me) or live baiting with the livewell pump always running and don't want to have the outboard/s idling to recharge the house battery.

The only reason for me to have LiFePo starter batteries instead of Lead-Acid is to have same chemistry batteries what makes planning and installing a boats electric system a bit simpler than a mixed chemistry battery setup. But there is no other benefit for LiFePo starter batteries than the arguable advantage of size and weight difference between lead-acid and LiFePo.

Chris

 

[SkunkBoat]

Hmmm. I see the point about House load. A pair of lead acid DC are not going to run a refrigerator/freezer and AC/Heat and a microwave and a coffee pot.
But now you are talking about a boat thats probably big enough to have a generator. ( or you SHOULD be on a boat big enough to need a generator)
If you need a 2500W stereo with 17 speakers I'm not capable of comprehending that...

I see the point about drawdown to 10% vs 50% but my experience with a pair of 24DC is they run VHF,MFD,Sonar, Spreaders, UW LEDs from dusk to dawn without dropping below 11.2V.
I imagine running a livewell would impact that a bit. And thats just 24DCs the smallest lead out there.

Motors are routinely started multiple times on the same battery in a short amount of time. If a single start battery can't start a motor twice in 10 or so seconds, it is a bad battery.
Starting different motors should not be a problem. Especially given that a motor is running when the second is started.
The concern may be that the ECM and fuel pump does require a battery.
That said, I still think one battery for two motors would work. Yes, the cycles would be twice the norm so battery life may suffer.

I think it might one of those "its always been done that way" things like the Stbd motor has start/house just like a single motor. The port motor is the add-on.
They never separate the house from the stbd start. They start with a single motor single battery config. then add a battery and a switch and say "run on 1 sometimes and 2 sometimes to keep them both charged."... Then you add a port motor and another switch and they connect it to the "2" battery. Its just always been done that way....

Sorry if I ramble but I'm just thinking out loud. Its interesting. Thread seems to be about "thinking about it" at this point...

 

[family affair]

I appreciate the ideas and thought.
I forgot about the frig. I never run it for fear of killing my batteries by accidentally leaving it on too long. Add that to the list.
As the kids are getting out of the nest, my wife and I would like to use the boat on occasion for an overnight or 2, so starting the engines at the dock to charge batteries at night is not going to happen. Shore power? That's on the to do list too, but a good Lipo might address most of our wants.

 

[Sardinia306Canyon]

I run down once and during day my 2 x 96Ah house and stbd engine batteries to about 55% in about 6 hours with engines off.
2 x Garmin 8412xsv running 1 plotter and the other my 1KW B265LH and highest screen illumination
1 x Fusion Amp with 4 speakers and subwoofer not playing loud, amp's watt unknown as ex owner installed it
Salt water pressure pump on approx every 10 minutes for 2 minutes
fresh water pump on approx every 30 minutes for 1 minute

At night Nav lights would drive up power consumption, radar in timed operation as well, not to speak if i would had the live well full of bait and the pump running all the time.

LiFePo (or the even newer solid-state batteries) are a game-changer for many boats as running the motor or generator is reduced big time.

That said, I still think one battery for two motors would work. Yes, the cycles would be twice the norm so battery life may suffer.

Yes they should, but what would be the benefit of that?
I would prefer to have two 50Ah starter batteries than one 100Ah for two motors.
And yes, recent 4 stroke engines are very picky with battery power to fire up a motor

so starting the engines at the dock to charge batteries at night is not going to happen. Shore power? That's on the to do list too, but a good Lipo might address most of our wants.

Shorepower would be the only feasible way while docked.
You would need a massive LiFePo setup for overnighters using most of the gear you have, however if you can limit the use on LED lights for inside and navigation and reduce the use of WC pump, water pumps, stereo and electronics it will work, interior and anchor lights with LED bulbs use just a few Amps and instead of the electric fridge you may use a cooler with ice as we all did till some years ago.
I can spend a night in my RV trailer and have interior lights on in the evening for about 4/5 hours and drain about 20% of the 55Ah YellowTop i have installed there.
The best start for evaluating the power needs for a overnighter is either be calculating amps needed or better install the Victron SmartShunt for the house batterie/s and verify what the actual discharge rate and charge rates with engines running is. The values from the Victron app will help greatly to guesstimate the correct Ah you would need to use the loads you wish to.

Chris