Chasing down an electrical issue

[RussGW270]

So, never ends heh....may be a show stopper for this weekend, we will see.

I was working on installing the new stereo, going to be a pain btw....

and I went to update the Garmin devices. Doing so, I remembered seeing some water in the bilge from the recent rains. I turned on the aft bilge, the chartplotter goes off and the lights went dimmer.

So, looks like I am going to take tomorrow off and figure out what the hell is shorting out. Cannot put her in the water with no damn bilge pump.

Like I mentioned, re-wiring the entire damn boat is on my short list...a professional job, not me.

Oh, also got this on the fish finder (see pic)

I am not an electrical guy. I can muddle thru, but the wiring stuff ticks me off heh.



R

 

[wrxhoon]

If it happened as you turn the bilge pump on it could be the pump itself but again can be anything. You have to start eliminating , take the fuse of the pump off and see if voltage returns to normal, if yes it is a quick find. Are the batteries fully charged ? If not thats' the first thing you do , charge them or at least charge one and work only with that battery on. Check the float switch next and see how you go .

 

[RussGW270]

If it happened as you turn the bilge pump on it could be the pump itself but again can be anything. You have to start eliminating , take the fuse of the pump off and see if voltage returns to normal, if yes it is a quick find. Are the batteries fully charged ? If not thats' the first thing you do , charge them or at least charge one and work only with that battery on. Check the float switch next and see how you go .

Exactly. I will locate it.. I just need time today...heh. Invariably, I would be able to take off work today and do it, but my co-worker decided to take a half day off when I said I was taking off tomorrow after 9am. So, now, have to wait till after work.

I am just going to look at that specific breaker.

The clues, I think, are that the lights on the deck dim, they do not go out. The Garmin 7610 turns off... The breaker to that one switch was tripped.. so, I start there, I look at the breaker and all the wires connecting to it. I also need to test the power at each battery and each terminal/bus between that and the switch. The key will be somewhere in al that and where I find a difference, I should find the answer.

The whole rats nest is old and needs to be cleaned up and so much looks like it is over-used and under-powered.

Hopefully, I can find some replacement breakers today as well.

Thanks for any and all input. I can run wires, in walls.. lol.. but the rats nest under the helm is in serious need of an overhaul... so.. starting to save my $5000-$6000 to get it done and done right. For now.. I am not waiting...but, no way in hell I can go out there without a damn bilge pump.. so, ...hrm... I need to rig the AFT to the forward and maybe run them both from that switch, for now.. and then I will not need to hit the aft.. a temp fix for this weekend... we will see. Safe, not fixed.

R

 

[Bloodweiser]

As said before. Isolate the issue and go from there. If all happened when you tried to use the bilge. Start there. Pull fuse. Try again.

 

[seasick]

So what you said is that you used the manual switch for the bilge pump and when you did the plotter reset and lights dimmed.
First key question: Did the pump run? If not did you try to trigger it using the auto sensor ( float switch)? If the pump doesn't run it might be frozen and that can draw more current but not enough to affect other devices. The fuse would blow (in auto mode) or the fuse/breaker at the helm would eventually trip.. Testing the auto function tells you if the pump is OK
I think you have a classic case of excessive voltage drop that is caused by a poor connection in either the accessory feed OR the ground wiring for all accessories.
That can be hard to locate if you don't have an understanding of electrical logic.
The first step is to look at and inspect the wire connections by the battery and switch including the ground connections ( the smaller wires, not the fat ones) and then do the same for the 12 volt feed starting at the breaker mounted near the batteries and than at the main bus bar at the helm. I am sure you will find a corroded or bad connection or device.
If the breaker doesn't pop when you turn on the pump at the helm leaving that device on will make it a lot easier to find out where the voltage is low due to a bad connection. You use a voltmeter connected to a god ground point and before turning on the pump, measure the voltage at the accessory buss at the helm. It should be just about the same as the standing battery voltage, let's say 12.4 volts. The measurement at the helm side of the bus will be the same as the battery if all devices are off including lights and plotter Now turn on the plotter. Voltage will drop but not a lot, 12.1 maybe (depends on the actual current drawn by the plotter). Now turn on the pump. I expect the voltage to take a dive. It has to get to drop to 11 to 11.4 or lower volts for the plotter to reset. If that is the case, you now have to isolate where the excessive drop is taking place.
To test if the ground is bad, move the voltmeter probe from the possitive bus to the common negative bus, where all the grounds connect at the helm. You should red a small voltage, very small. If it is in the volts, your ground feed is the culprit.

 

[RussGW270]

As said before. Isolate the issue and go from there. If all happened when you tried to use the bilge. Start there. Pull fuse. Try again.

Yep... I just removed the panel and am about to look at the fuse. I need an extra anyway, and will order a couple, just in case.. simply because I need it by tomorrow. Then, during lunch... I will go put a meter at the pump and see if it is even coming on at all as well.

Will track it down, just time is not my friend today.. heh

for your viewing pleasure... I present.. "The Rat's Nest" (just an initial look.. I am trying to slip in, do a bit, go back to work online.. will get really into it when off work.. you know.. and it is 95 degrees outside....)

I am also going to call Garmin and see exactly what the best way to hook up the GPS is. If the GPS is getting a bad voltage drop, I can re-wire it and get it out of the equation a lot faster than chasing it down to "fix it" as is. Then address the bilge as a separate issue. It all comes down to, as you say, it looks like corrosion and bad connections, same as if it were a car battery. Since I THINK the GPS has nothing to do with the bilge, it lends to a common connection, the busses, and I see a lot of corrosion there. May be simple as swapping those out as well.

Will know when I can get a meter on them, and yes.. also make sure the bilge pump even works.

 

[Bloodweiser]

Looks like normal wiring on an old boat.

 

[RussGW270]

Curious... the switch is a 20am 12v, but the breaker is a 10amp...looking to see whether these breakers are swappable... from amazon. Long term, I think I need to clean up and re-wire it all, is a mess, but with a small window, I need parts tomorrow just in case... can't wait till I "need them" to order, so gotta order a few things that I cannot find local.

Then, track down the parts, clean some wires, replace a few possibly. I can get a new bilge pump etc if I have to, locally.. but need to prepare for breakers I cannot locate locally.

@Bloodweiser agreed.. when I say mess, I mean dirty and corroded and old wiring is all. The wiring I did yesterday, heat shrunk and labeled, so.. different standards lol.. but, normal is correct. So, need to track the wiring and test voltage and the actual pump to see why it acted like that as it did not do that before but.. the voltage on the 7610, that I have seen, just not this bad, so... need to see how they wired it now.

 

[Bloodweiser]

Switch is probably generic multiuse with a 20amp rating. Fuse should be rated to the pump. Follow Seasicks path.

 

[RussGW270]

Gotcha.. ok, Luckily these are all very inexpensive, shockingly.. lol.

Will do more.. for now, in a freaking meeting so.. after work today

Thanks guys!

R

 

[seasick]

The rating on a switch is its maximum capacity and is not the same concept as the rating on a fuse. The a load required a 1 amp fuse for protection, the proper fuse and the switch rated for 20A would be perfectly OK.
Take a look at the black wire connected to the lower lug on the right hand bus. Take it off and clean the screw as well as the connector bare sides. For that wire and any others, wiggle the connector to see if it is loose and look into the crimped end for corrosion.
Do the same for the larger red common feed on the top of the left hand bus in your photo. Turn off the battery switch when playing with the 12v feeds (usually red) so that you won't have a short if the lead accidentally bumps into a ground.

 

[RussGW270]

Thanks @seasick exactly what my plan of action was. Right now, at least I am making progress sitting at my desk. I ordered a couple backup 10am breakers, just in case. That is the only thing I cannot locate locally.

I am re-wiring the new stereo to use the old stereo wiring harness, so I do not need to run new wires etc. Then at least I have that out of the way. Once I can get off work, I plan to do exactly what you discussed, start cleaning those connections and making sure they are tight. I also will be testing the bilge pump to make sure it works. I can always call ahead and grab one there and swap it out, or get one at Academy.

Thanks!

R

 

[dainlaroche]

Is your battery well charged?

 

[wrxhoon]

I am just going to look at that specific breaker.


R

Turning off or looking at the breaker is not going to prove anything because the bilge float switch still has power.
To eliminate if the bilge pump is your problem take the fuse off not the breaker near the helm.
Somewhere at the rear on your boat near the main battery switch ( the one that says both, 1, 2 off) you will find some fuse holders ( usually 3 but not sure on your boat how many) 2 of those will be for the bilge pumps one would say aft bilge the other forward bilge . These fuses supply power to your bilge pump direct so the pumps can still go on automatically even if the batteries are turned off.
Take these fusses off one at the time to see if you still have the voltage drop.
Electrical faults can be very difficult to find but once found usually very cheap to rectify.
On boats a lot of problems are bad connections .

 

[RussGW270]

Agreed. I did not get off work in time to really check it out, but I have off all day tomorrow so will get an early start. I plan to start by just cleaning terminals and checking to make sure they are all tight.

I did a little more testing:

1 - I have 2 accessory buttons. The issue only surfaces when I have #2 on.

2 - I can turn on ONLY the bilge pump and it will just turn off in about 10 seconds. Now... no.. it is not the fact there is not enough water.. lol.. the breaker has to be reset to turn it back on.

3 - I can turn the bilge pump on and the gps.. but the gps gets a low voltage alarm of like 11.3 when I have the #1 accessory on and the bilge, it has an alarm of like 8.6 when both accessories and bilge are on.

Again, all hinges on when I have enough light to really go through it all in the morning, so we will see.

R

 

[Bloodweiser]

I turned off low voltage alarms on electronics.. Annoying

 

[RussGW270]

Yea, I am thinking it is just from a device turning on, will test that theiry more as well. After I test to make sure the bilge pump really is pumping, I will remove any non-essentials from the bus as possible. I will eventually get it, but worse case, I’ll park the damn boat at the coast at the pier and work on it in the slip while I enjoy the salt air lol.

 

[wrxhoon]

2 - I can turn on ONLY the bilge pump and it will just turn off in about 10 seconds. Now... no.. it is not the fact there is not enough water.. lol.. the breaker has to be reset to turn it back on.

That means it trips the breaker as soon as it goes on . In that case you have a short somewhere between that button as you say and the bilge , the bilge itself could be faulty. You can check that by connecting the bilge pump direct to a 12 volt battery if it works and doesn't get hot then it should be ok. To make 100% sure run the positive wire to the pump via a breaker the same value as the one on your switch.

 

[RussGW270]

I swear....working or not, need a new bilge pump. Someone swapped an Attwood 1700 with a Rule 1100 for the aft pump. It may “get it done” but that won’t cut it. So, off to locate a damn 100 more in purchases.

Easy swap though.

The valves are corroded open, need to find something to loosen them. Wd-40 won’t cut it.

 

[RussGW270]

Okay, may have found the root cause.... besides needing to be cleaned.

Tha aft pump is working fine. I can hear it, just no water there so.. will check out if something is blocking the water flow from the bilge as I swore I saw water somewhere, heh.. but.. eh, it works.

2 issues:

1 - Someone swapped the 1700 Attwood out with a Rule 1100. That will need to be upgraded.

2 - The breaker on the #1 accessory is 5 amps. With the 7610 as well as the new electronics, that 5amp is under powered imo. Everything else is running off of 10 amps. All the stuff running off of that has fuses for 7.5, so... seems silly to have it less. That being said, not swapping it out till after I clean it all up and see the effect.

I am on my way to HD to grab a whole bunch of extra connectors and some more dremmel wire brushes and going to take them all off one by one, clean them, put them back. Then, replace the bad ones and test for a ground/short. The aft pump looks clean as a whistle, almost new, so I think it is at the panel, where it plugs in. The whole thing is filthy so going to clean it all up. Also need to grab some break free solvent to get the valves working better. They work, just hard as hell.

R