Ethanol 95 Phase Separation

[Attitude Indicator]

Hi guys,
There have probably been other threads regarding "Phase Separation" with E95, but I couldn't find them.
I have a GW225T over in Phuket, Thailand. Great little boat. Unfortunately the Thai's are now using ethanol in their 95 octane.
I have to haul the boat and leave it on the hardstand for 2 months at a time, while I'm away at work in Abu Dhabi (I'm a pilot).
After 2 months, I then return home to Phuket, splash the boat and use it off and on over the next 4 weeks, before hauling it again.

Question: What can be done to minimize phase separation in the fuel that I leave in the tanks (about 50gal....50%) for 2 months...???
I've been using Startron Fuel Stabilizer and Startron Fuel Tank Cleaner. I've also replaced the factory Yamaha Fuel Water Separator/Filter
with a RACOR Fuel Filter/Separator.....with the clear glass bowl at the bottom. Fuel in the bowl appears to be darker than normal......
I'm guessing this isn't good. I really want to avoid fouling the fuel lines and injectors with gunk.....if it's there.
I'm thinking about adding a 2nd "in-line" RACOR filter/separator and carry a lot of spare filters.
Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated,
Thanks
Ian Mitchell
Phuket, Thailand

 

[g0tagrip]

I think what you will find out is that opinions are like _______ everyone has one. Here is my two cents worth. Yamaha says to change fuel water separators every 50 hours. I would also change out both engine mounted fuel filters at least every 200 hours, but check them every 100 hours, if discolored change them. Since you cannot avoid ethanol fuel, I would fill up on my way out, put in your additives, including ring free, when you fill up, and leave the boat sit with as little fuel in the tank as possible.

 

[eppem]

After going thru the conversion her in CT I would also suggest pumping the fuel that goes into the tank thru a filter with a micron screen.

The additives will clean out the tanks upstream from you, thru the truck the delivery the fuel and in the storage tanks where you get fuel. Best preventative medicine is to keep the bad fuel from getting into the tank.

Not really a problem in CT anymore now that all the above has been flushed. If you do need to be gone for 2 month, add stabil and run the tank as dry as you can. Add fresh fuel when you get back.

I have a 265 express and it has two tanks. I filled one up and left one nearly empty over the last 5 winters and have not had any issues. The past off season i left about 1/4 tank in my main tank, loaded it with stabil and it was just fine. I am out of the water from mid dec to mid march and fuel up last week - no issues.

Good luck!

 

[seasick]

You won't get phase separation unless you get a pretty good amount of water in the tank. Sitting for 2 months should not be a problem. My boat sits all winter with no issues although I do add stabilizer ( which doesn't help with water all that much). The secret is to keep adding fresh fuel. Try to add what you will use in two typical trips and add fuel as needed to maintain that level.
Personally, other than RingFree which I add every fill, I do not use a stabilizer or other additives except for the winter storage. That has worked out for 12 years so far.

 

[onoahimahi]

My Grady dealer (Baert Marine) recommended Biobor EB because it also helps with corrosion. There is a review of is here:

http://www.biobor.com/Practical-Sailor- ... rosion.php

What do pay for a gallon of gas in Thailand..?

 

[Attitude Indicator]

Thanks for your replies guys.
I've got to figure out a way to smuggle "Ring Free" into Thailand. It's not available. Nor is it available in Abu Dhabi where I work.
Keeping the math easy with the rate of exchange, gasoline (E95) costs ....$6.42 USD / gallon
(45 Thai baht / liter. Four liters / US gallon. Rate of Exchange: 28 Baht : 1 USD)
135NM south of Phuket and just 2NM across the Malaysian border at the Telaga Marina in Langkawi, E95 costs 1/2 the price...!!!
I don't even want to know how cheap it is in the States............Hahaha.
Might have to take-up sailing again..........

 

[Doc Stressor]

There are no additives that have any significant effect on phase separation. There have been many tests that have shown this and any chemist knows this is the case. You simply can't use enough additive containing an alcohol, glycol, or ether to make a difference. On the other hand, adding more dry ethanol containing fuel will allow more moisture to be absorbed. But if you do get phase separation, you will need to drain your tank and have your engine's fuel system cleaned.

Switching to an ethanol containing fuel can cause several problems that will eventually be cured by the continued use of ethanol fuel. Excess water will eventually be absorbed and frequent filter changes should eventually remove varnish particles that are released from the surface of your tank and fuel system. The corrosive properties ethanol fuel is another issue. Ethanol contains a small amount of sulfate that becomes acidic in the presence of moisture. This can cause pitting of some aluminum parts (the VST tank for example) in the fuel system and also cause a white power to form which can clog internal filters an fuel injectors. You need to use a good stabilizer to prevent this.

The best thing to do is to keep your tank at least 95% full during storage to minimize condensation within the tank. Use a chemical stabilizer such as Yamaha Fuel Stabilizer Plus to slow down fuel oxidation and protect aluminum parts from corrosion (that's what the Plus is about). You don't need to use Ringfree as long as you are using good quality fuel. Most gasoline sold in Europe and Asia is much better than some of the cheap gas sold in the US. That's why you can't get Ringfree abroad.

Run your boat as often as you can and keep changing your filters and you should be fine.

 

[Daman858]

I know nothing about gasoline in Thailand but I did have one hell of a great time in Phuket on R&R back in the day.

 

[GulfSea]

Here's an article that describes what I've come to understand about the process and reasons it's not good for outboards. http://www.fuel-testers.com/expiration_of_ethanol_gas.html There's pretty much 2 camps of opinions on E10, those who have experienced phase separation and those that haven't (yet). I had it in lawn equipment where I had to replace 3 carbs and an old chainsaw was damaged beyond repair. Fortunately I haven't had to put it in my outboard so far.

 

[Attitude Indicator]

Thanks again guys for the info.......
Great article on Phase Separation. (http://www.fuel-testers.com/expiration_ ... l_gas.html)
Might have to consider draining the tank if I leave the boat for an extended period and using the fuel in my wife's car.
Thanks much.

 

[seasick]

There are no additives that have any significant effect on phase separation. There have been many tests that have shown this and any chemist knows this is the case. You simply can't use enough additive containing an alcohol, glycol, or ether to make a difference. On the other hand, adding more dry ethanol containing fuel will allow more moisture to be absorbed. But if you do get phase separation, you will need to drain your tank and have your engine's fuel system cleaned.

Switching to an ethanol containing fuel can cause several problems that will eventually be cured by the continued use of ethanol fuel. Excess water will eventually be absorbed and frequent filter changes should eventually remove varnish particles that are released from the surface of your tank and fuel system. The corrosive properties ethanol fuel is another issue. Ethanol contains a small amount of sulfate that becomes acidic in the presence of moisture. This can cause pitting of some aluminum parts (the VST tank for example) in the fuel system and also cause a white power to form which can clog internal filters an fuel injectors. You need to use a good stabilizer to prevent this.

The best thing to do is to keep your tank at least 95% full during storage to minimize condensation within the tank. Use a chemical stabilizer such as Yamaha Fuel Stabilizer Plus to slow down fuel oxidation and protect aluminum parts from corrosion (that's what the Plus is about). You don't need to use Ringfree as long as you are using good quality fuel. Most gasoline sold in Europe and Asia is much better than some of the cheap gas sold in the US. That's why you can't get Ringfree abroad.

Run your boat as often as you can and keep changing your filters and you should be fine.

I usually agree with your comments but my understanding is that the water from condensation is greatly overblown. If you do the math, there isn't a lot of water vapor in the air space of the tank. In addition, the relative humidity especially in the north, is frequently very low during the colder winter storage months. The temperature swings are not as dramatic here either so the amount of potential water vapor condensing is reduced. Yes, in the hotter. more moist climates, there is more potential for condensation but from the studies I read, it isn't a lot, not enough to cause significant water in a tank.
Note also that the actual surface of the fuel can cause condensation when the temp of the fuel is colder than the air. So depending on the geometry of the tank, the total area exposed to the air including tank walls and fuel surface may not change all that much when the tank is full or not so full. The theory about filling a tank is based on the assumption that there is less moist air to condense. The theory of an empty tank is not clear to me. The tank itself as long as there is a temperature difference between it and the air will cause condensation. Having some ethanol gas in the tank actually helps since it will absorb small amounts of water.
I have only seen one supposed case of fuel separation in the last 6 years dealing with about 70 vessels at my club and the cause of that one was most likely water intrusion. Of course, I have seen water in the fule on several occasions but that was always caused by a bad load of gas or a leakk that allowed rain water to enter a tank.I have stored stabilized fuel for close to a year at a time without issues. Octane will lessen over time but it does for non ethanol gas also.
It would be helpful if there were a controlled scientific study done by a reputable organisation on this topic. I don't put much faith in studies sponsored or conducted by the additive manufactures.