Ethanol blended gas is BAD, BAD, BAD!

[BobP]

Depends how much water we are talking about, who expects a quart bottle of anything to stop gallons of water from grabbing the alcohol?
Not to mention filler gap gasket leaks and water being pumped into your boat from the fill up station's tank.

Also depends how fast you use the fuel and relative humidity in your area as well as night to day temperature delta. Pasco missed this one.

If you ever go out to your car or boat in the AM and it is covered with water (and it didn't rain), then you wipe off a spot dry with a scott towel, and it rewets right away, guess what that is? And guess what's inside the tank on the walls of your tank, any different? Go into the cabin on your boat and wipe the face of anything metal, like the wiper motor, is it wet? Window glass inside, is it wet?

CONDENSATE !

Call me cynical - Mercury is covering their can so they can deny warranty coverage for faulty fuel causing motor damage. You can bet the dealer will check fuel quality if you go back with a midoperating motor.

I bet many members are too young to know the days of "dry gas", 5 bottles for a buck, used to prevent fuel line freezing in winter up here.
Guess what was in those bottles?

 

[BobP]

If my memory serves right - several years ago BOAT US contracted out some testing and issued an excellent report, if you can get your hands on it.

The lab determined how much water it took to cause phase seperation, as I recall, and how much didn't cause it. They also discussed the problem with the old glass tanks, and what the resin did to motors, etc.

I see no conflict of interest with BOAT US running the research effort, so no cynicism here.

 

[choogenboom]

Today Yamaha graciously offered to cover half the cost of the repair. The toal bill was $950 and they did not even replace the pumps as we brought them back to life on the bench. If we had replaced teh pumps it would have been $2000. What I find interesting is that Yamaha did not take a sample of the fuel and test it - they just assumed it was bad fuel and used that assumption to deny full warranty coverage. If the lining of the fuel pump's impeller housing had been made from stainless then it would have been tolerant of the bad effects of Ethanol. That it is not is in my opionion a design defect and it should be covered under warranty.

 

[GulfGrady]

Read this. http://www.yachtsurvey.com/myth_of_cond ... _tanks.htm

 

[BobP]

I read it.

The temperature of the air in my area can vary plenty from night to day, and the tank doesn't have to be much colder than the air to condense the moisture out of the air particularly when it is warm and humid out, warmer air holds a lot more moisture than colder air.

That's why there is no use for dehumdifiers in home basements in the colder months. Take a cool glass of tap water outside on a warm humid day and place it down and watch the puddle it makes, don't need to have ice in it.

As a matter of fact, to prevent condensation, just a few degrees higher than ambient is all it takes. No condensation at all.

He doesn't show the volume of air in the tank to be different from day to day, it changes day to day when the tank, it's fuel and air space expand pushing out air, then contracts over night when it cools and the sun has gone down, sucking in a new fresh supply of humid moisture laden air, during those days and warmer months of the year up here. This happens all by itself without ever using any fuel, using fuel of course does the same thing, sucking in more air volume as the level drops. The surface of the gasoline will condense moisture too, not just the tank walls and roof.

E10 is that much worse since alcohol attracts moisture by itself.

Outdoors, there is no way the fuel / tank temp can track the air temp changes up here from night to day on many many of the warmer months. If you can keep the temperature of the fuel and air space in the tank the same as ambient, or keep the gas temp always higher than ambient, then you get what pescoe states, no water from condensation in tank. Good luck trying to heat up the fuel load naturally that has been cooling all evening and night, so in the morning when the ambient and effects of sunshine comes up very fast. We can get some very humid days up here.

And it doesn't matter if the tank vent is the diameter of a pin head.

I recall one spring I was getting behind and was ready to bottom paint the Grady Drive and the weather wasn't cooperating. In the morning the drive was covered with condensate and it was cool to the touch, but it was warm and humid out (had a cool night). The moment after I wiped down the drive to dry it, it would condense right up. So I had to use one hand with a wad of paper towels and the other with the roller to get the paint on the drive and not paint the water! The point of this is, if the drive inspection port was open, the inside would be doing the same thing as the outside - condensing the moisture right out of the air. Similar to the gas tank, inside and outside.

 

[BobP]

Choogen - your original fuel load of non-ethanol fuel may have had a large dose of water on the bottom under the pick up tube, so when you added E10, the existing water caused the phase seperation and the motor was now sucking up much of this water now combined with the alcohol.

When E10 first showed up here, guys were blowing powerheads left and right, brand new ones too (didn't recall any of these being on new boats (i.e. new tanks))

There was also a problem with the gasoline distributors mixing in too much alcohol way more than the 10%.

Whatever fuel you intend to use, be consistent and don't mix, use Startron or the like and hopefully you use fuel up regularly and it doesn't sit too long. Fuel/water seperators can't seperate heavily water laden fuel, they have a limited capacity. Drain bowls regularly. I use a small poland spring bottle, 1/4 fill from each racor bowl drain.

I would fuel up with less fuel but more often so fresh fuel enters the tanks more often. May have to make more trips to fuel station though.

 

[GWcpa]

I'm still getting non-ethanol fuel from a local (to my boat) distributor. Paying .25 more a gallon or so than the discount gas stations with E10, but I'm happy to do so to get 100% gasoline.

The distributor said he may not ever get E10. I'm hoping that is the case. In any case, I've yet to get any water in my Racor bowl.

 

[choogenboom]

The problem is not sucking up whats at the bottom of the tank. I had the same argument with the Service tech. Whats at the bottom of the tank is:

(1) water bonded to ethenol. This is the 1st stage of phase seperation
(2) water, after it has bonded with all the available ethanol in the tank

Either way, water or water bonded to ethanol is _heavier_ than gas and will be separated out by gravity at
(1) the spin on fuel filter in the bilge and
(2) the fuel bowl under the hood of my F225

At the time both of my fuel pumps seized up I drained both of my spin on fuel filters into a bucket and visually inspected the fuel bowls under the hood of the engines. There was no water or water/ethanol anywhere. So what caused my pumps to seize was carried to them in what most would call the "good" gas in the tank, ie the layer that floats on top of the water or water/ethanol thats at the bottom of the tank.

Latest update - this morning one fuel pump was seized up again (starboard engine) after only 36 hours of sitting time. Note that after the pumps were fixed on wednesday all filters were replaced and I now have new Yamaha OEM 10 micron filters. I am about to completely suck my Aux tank dry by dropping a hose into the fuel sender opening and fill it with fresh E10 fuel and then figure out how to deal with whatever the evil is in my main tank that is causing my pumps to seize up. The best clue I have is I evaporated what I poured out of my two spin on filters which was "good" gas from the main tank. What appeared to be clean gas (plus the typical dirt/debri that was caught by the filter) was in a 5 gallon bucket. I used two paper towels on the sides of the buckets as wicks to speed the evaporation process. All gas has evaporated and the paper towels now have a sticky golden residue on them which I am guessing is varnish. So my current best guess is all the varnish in the main tank has been dissolved into the gas and is passing through the filters. When left to sit for even 36 hours the varnish is congealing on the vanes in the fuel pumps and seizing the pump.

More to come ...

 

[BobP]

I disagree with you.

Phase seperation doesn't happen all by itself. No reason too, otherwise it would be happening in our cars and lawnmowers you would see a major loss of peformance since alcohol has way less energy than equal amount of gasoline.

It takes a certain amount of liquid water to seperate all the alcohol from the remaining gasoline of E10, not just an equal amount of alcohol seperates.
So if there was enough liquid water in a low tank and filled up with 100 gallons of E10, potentially 10 gallons of alcohol seperate out of the gasoline. And, unfortunately for oil mix in tank 2 strokers, the oil stayed with the gasoline.

I think Stabil or valvetek sells a test strip to extend to the bottom of the tank to test for pure water presense.

The BOAT US magazine report covered this a few year ago, as I recall.

Hope you get the problems settled soon.

 

[plymouthgrady]

IMHO, the main reason you had such a bad experience is because you mixed MTBE with E-10 fuel. Yes, E-10 does do all the things alluded to here but one CANNOT MIX LARGE QTYS OF E-10 w/ MTBE. End of story.
We have been dealing w/ E-10 fuel for years in the N.E. and I'm sure else where across the country and if everyone had the horror stories that we hear of then I don't think anyone would be boating-they'd be in the shop the whole time.
The biggest problem w/ E-10 is boaters lack of knowledge of how to deal w/ it, IMHO.

 

[missnfishin]

BobP, you stated that we dont have this problem with cars, lawnmowers etc, which appears to be true. What I dont understand is why is this only affecting marine engines? I have gas sitting in my international 444 all winter and she fires right up, no water problem. I am also wondering if storing a boat inside decreases the problem. My boat is kept on a lift inside a boat house all the time. There is never condensation on anything, even though it is literally 6" above the water, and we get the large temp fluctuations up here near lake ontario also (30 degrees difference between 6:00am and 11:00 am today). If there is no condensation anywhere in the boat, should I assume that there isnt any in the tank either? This boat and motor are new to me, help me keep from screwing something up here, will ya!
Dan

 

[BobP]

Interesting point. I think these modern DI and FI 2 & 4 stroke outboards are too sensitive to fuel quality issues, why I don't know, they sure cost enough not to be. Can buy a whole car for one of these outboards today.

My 2004 car doesn't even have a servicable fuel filter to replace, and 60,000 miles later no problems ever with E10. No Stabile, Startron, Ezorb, you name it, nothing but a bottle of techron once a year.

The fuel systems in cars are closed, by law. The original idea was to prevent evaporation of fuel into the atmoshere, no good for the environment those unburned hydrocarbons. Who would know one day same system protects E10 fuel from moisture-in-air contamination.
Not so with boats, yet. 35 yrs later and still waiting !

I bet your International has a carburetor (?)

If you are not finding condensate on the boat's metal surfaces in the morning and evening, then the relative humidity must be low and it won't be inside the tank, irrespective of boat house or not. like I wrote, it depends on the particular climate where one is, and the day to day weather changes. And if the storage area is more climate controlled all the better.

I had a 1980 Nizzan Z years ago, had a closed fuel system. The bottom of the gas tank developed a leak, when I took the tank down and inspected the inside, the entire bottom of the tank was rusty, so bad it rusted through. Remainder of tank inside shiny silver. How can that be? A gas station must have sold water spiked gas, this was before E10 days. Z ran fine otherwise since water was below pickup.

And if the gas station didn't stiff you with water in fuel when you gassed up, you should be ok.

E10 will degrade in octane faster than non-ethanol fuel, and still attract moisture in air, however, so it is recommended to use a stabilizer something like startron all the time anyway. One 32 oz bottle is good for 320 gallons as I recall. Cheap enough, relative to price of 320 gals of gas.

Guys on THT have reported seeing rust in the bottom of their VST tanks, sounds like my Z.

It won't help if the gas station pumps water into the tank.

With E10, when phase seperation occurs, as I read, it can't be reversed. Many gallons of mostly alcohol and water being sucked up into motor going right through all the filters, not good, corrosive, being max 10% ethanol per manuf. owners manual / warranty. No additives are going to fix this payload of fuel.

So I hope you are using a fuel / water seperating filter with a bowl drain, go to reliable gas station, and periodically drain some off and look at it for discoloration vs. normal fresh fuel color. If still using non-ethanol fuel and going over to E10, drain as much out as possible of old fuel prior by using it up or other means, that was the advise I read also.

Good luck!

 

[BobP]

And make sure you maintain the O ring seal on the gas cap, if the O ring is not sealing - is like leaving a funnel in the opening! Might has well vist the gas station pumping water!

 

[rorkin]

I bought the racor filter with the bowl and found that it is a little too long to just spin on.. It hits the drain hose from one of the scuppers..
the filter head is mounted right above it..
Has anyone else dealt with this problem ?? IS it easier to try to move the head-- perhaps shift the rubber drain hose ( I am leery of that one)
or simply just get another head and bypass the existing one..
The old one seems to be mounted to a glassed on mounting block.
It looks like a bear to get to the mounting hardware.
How have those of you who remounted accomplished that ?

 

[catch22]

I bought the racor filter with the bowl and found that it is a little too long to just spin on.. It hits the drain hose from one of the scuppers..
the filter head is mounted right above it..
Has anyone else dealt with this problem ?? IS it easier to try to move the head-- perhaps shift the rubber drain hose ( I am leery of that one)
or simply just get another head and bypass the existing one..
The old one seems to be mounted to a glassed on mounting block.
It looks like a bear to get to the mounting hardware.
How have those of you who remounted accomplished that ?

If it were me, I would relocate it. I'd want easy access, not only for replacing the filter element, but draining the bowl, which is something I do often.

 

[BobP]

Rorkin, why don't you take a photo of the mounting? the guys here can offer more specifics to moving it.

My Racor S3213 element isn't all that longer than any solid canister filter, the added bowl does make it longer. I had the stainless Tempo or Moeller head and was using the solid merc filters before getting the racor conversion for the same head.

Yes you do need room below to drain it regularly, the most important thing to due during the season. You want to keep the bowl clear of anything liquid that's not proper fuel, otherwise it will build up higher overflowing the bowl and go right thru the filter element into your motor. What will go to the bowl is always going to be heavier than proper fuel, or proper fuel will stay there if nothing heavier comes down the pike.

 

[rorkin]

Rorkin, why don't you take a photo of the mounting? the guys here can offer more specifics to moving it.

My Racor S3213 element isn't all that longer than any solid canister filter, the added bowl does make it longer. I had the stainless Tempo or Moeller head and was using the solid merc filters before getting the racor conversion for the same head.

Yes you do need room below to drain it regularly, the most important thing to due during the season. You want to keep the bowl clear of anything liquid that's not proper fuel, otherwise it will build up higher overflowing the bowl and go right thru the filter element into your motor. What will go to the bowl is always going to be heavier than proper fuel, or proper fuel will stay there if nothing heavier comes down the pike.

I should say, it is on a 228G.. The head is mounted tirectly above and on the centerline of the scupper drain Stbd/aft. There is just enough room to spin off the standard filter before it hits the drain tube. THe extra little length of the bowl (the valve actually) makes it just a little too long to get on.. There does not seem to be any play in the drain hose to allow it to fit..

 

[choogenboom]

Final (hopefully!) update. I brought the seized pump on the starboard engine back to life without having to pull the pump. The pump's hot lead can be accessed at it's fuse block, and by using a standalone 12V battery I was able to alternately pulse the pump forward (regular power polarity) and backwards (reverse power polarity) until it started running again. This is the same thing I did with the local Yamaha tech with the pump on the bench but this time it took 5 minutes verses last time it took about an hour to get the pump out and on the bench.

Using a aftermarket automotive fuel pump I sucked my auxiliary tank, which had already been run down to empty, as dry as I could. I accessed the tank through the fuel sender opening. As a side note, there was very little fuel left, maybe about a quart, so the pickups do a good job sucking the tank dry. No water was visible in the fuel I sucked out. There was a small amount of crud piled in the corner of the tank which I am guessing is partially dissolved varnish. I took a picture comparing new gas (on left) that I bought that morning with the old gas (on right) sucked up from the aux tank. The old gas has a golden amber color, compared to the new gas which looks almost colorless. I think this is another datapoint that points to dissolved varnish as the culprit.

What suprises me is that when you hear about the problems associated with transitioning a boat that has run older non-ethanol gas to running ethanol gas the main complaint is fuel filters getting clogged with varnish. Often the advice is to bring along 2 or more spare filters. But in my case I never saw a clogged filter. If I had to guess, that may be true if you run the boat hours to days after introducing the first tank of E10 but if the boat sits for weeks or months the varnish is fully dissolved back into the gas and will pass through the filter. Remember, my pumps seized with fuel being filtered through brand new Yamaha OEM 10 micron filters.

I have now filled my aux tank with fresh E10 fuel. My main tank still has about 100 gallons of old stuff which I plan to burn through until its empty and then fill with fresh. I will however be careful to switch to the aux tank 10 minutes prior to shutting down the engines so that it will sit with only fresh fuel in the fuel system.

 

[Capt Bill]

Thanks for the update. Interesting thread, and it's got me thinking; :roll: (scary, I know).

I am going to switch to the Raycors with clear bowl, too. I'll still keep a pair of Yamaha filters on the boat, sealed in a ziplok bag, along with a set of spare Raycor replacement filters, just in case there is a fuel problem at sea, and the clear bowl is stuck on the old filter, orI lose the O-ring.

 

[BobP]

If the brown stuff is varnish, I don't think it can corrode anything.

Seems like a lot of varnish to discolor that much fuel (??) Looking inside the tank, one ought to see the golden stuff covered the walls and bottom.

I wonder what a spectral analysis shows the cause of the color is of that sample, as well as content for dissolved moisture, alcohol, and octane.

Doesn't gas discolor as it ages ?

Water and alcohol corrode, don't think varnish corrodes.

If the suspect dissolved varnish in fuel sample in the photo is heavier (denser) than normal fuel, it will tend to go to the bottom of the racors, and stay there, as long as not too much - less that can overflow the bowl.

Basically the bowls are checked for particulates, and discolored fuel, including emulsified (cloudy) fuel.

If you have a metal bowl, drain some out into a clear container and let it settle for a while, look at it as it fills the container for changes in color, since you can't see a transition while in the metal bowl.

When it comes to fuel, members are either having a problem or not, no in between. For any reason, I have not had any fuel problems after the conversion took place several years ago to E10 in downstate NY. And none of my buddies in the marina are having any problems. The guys with old Bertrams rebuilt or replaced their glass tanks some time ago - all done with.