F-350s on a 330 Express

[SeaBiscuit]

In the process of finalizing options on a new 330 Express. We have tentatively decided to power the boat with 350s as opposed to 300s. Looking for a bit of information from you guys based on experience.

After speaking with Yamaha regarding the flywheel issues, it sound like they have the "harmonic disturbance" problem occuring between a certain RPM range and that range is specific to the boat the engines are powering. Does anyone know or own a 330 powered with 350s? If so, what are your experiences with these engines/issues?

Also, one of Yamaha's new "fixes" for this issue are to clock the hours the boat runs in that RPM range and once that hour meter reaches 80 hours, a new flywheel is installed at no cost. Can anyone provided any further detail or experience?

Thanks for everyone's time!

 

[magicalbill]

I've heard of the flywheel probs. Yamaha techs can expound on that.

I have not ridden or know of a 330 w/300's.

I have ridden on 330's with both 250's and 350's and the difference is significant. I've always thought that the 250's were not enough power.
The 350's on the boat I rode on will run 30-31MPH at 4000-4100 or so. 1.2 MPG approx. Gets the boat on plane quick.

I would go 350's and just fix the flywheel when it comes up, especially if it's a warranty issue. You'll have a bit of downtime w/out the boat, but before and after you'll have a great rig with the right power paks.

 

[HMBJack]

I have a 2006 330 with F250's. I have owned it for 6 + years and have never felt it was underpowered. I can cruise all day (and night) at a comfortable 24 knots (27.6 mph statute) and the engines are not hurting in any way. Plus, the F250 is easy to work on and super reliable.

That said, more HP is always welcome. A pal of mine has a 2013 330 with twin 350's. I have fished on it several times and the boat is really, really, fast. Was clocked at 50 mph statute GPS is flat calm conditions.

It is arguably "over powered" for ocean use because you don't get that many days to use all of that horsepower.

I personally think the best power package is the F300's since they offer good economy and more reliability (at least as of now). I would expect Yamaha will improve the F350 but right now, there are a few issues with it as stated above. Good luck in your decision. The 330 is a great boat no matter what you put on the transom.

One last input, ask your dealer about 4 blade props Vs. the standard 3 blade. The 330 is a wide and heavy beast and the added torque you get from the 4 blades makes a difference IMHO. Other boats in this size range have much more blade in the water. Just sayin...

 

[SeaBiscuit]

I have a 2006 330 with F250's. I have owned it for 6 + years and have never felt it was underpowered.

That said, more HP is always welcome. A pal of mine has a 2013 330 with twin 350's. The boat hauls A**...

It is arguably "over powered" in ocean use because you don't get that many days to use all of that horsepower.

I personally think the best power package is the F300's since they offer good economy and more reliability (at least as of now). I would expect Yamaha will improve the F350 but right now, there are a few issues with it as stated above. Good luck in your decision. The 330 is a great boat no matter what you put on the transom...

Thanks for the info! I was told the main difference with 350s and 300s is torque and displacement. The displacement on a F350c with standard 3 blade props is already significantly more than an F300, would 4 blade props really be necessary?? Sorry I'm just not to familiar with prop swapping.

Most of the resales I am seeing on this boat have low hours and are powered by F300s. It just makes me wonder whether they felt underpowered, or if its just a side effect of the Go-Fast world we live in. Before 10-15 years ago the boat was powered strictly with 225s or 250s. We currently own a 307 Freedom with F300s and you're 100% right, they are reliable and they are efficient. With the 330 we will be adding nearly 5000 lbs of dry weight and the concern was how the engines would react to the added weight.

 

[ElyseM]

i have an '09 with f350s. i personally wouldn't put anything else on it. i did experience the casting issue with the starboard powerhead coming out of layup in 2010. yamaha replaced and all good since then. standard yamaha spec'd winterizing on the f350s is to run antifreeze through them.

i switched from stock 3 blades to the 4 and the difference is significant. you will loose a couple mph, but i don't run flat out more than once or twice a season (exercise only, i cruise around 30 mph). the improved bite is pretty much across the entire rpm spectrum. low speed control is better, following seas improved handling and rarely a prop ventilation. i frequently turn tight S turns at cruise to knock off bottom growth. i get hull slip without prop ventilation.

if you are buying used, make sure the new ecu's have been installed on the engines. it clocks the time at certain rpm ranges for the flywheel swap. i have to believe that they will come up with a high temp/strength polymer to replace the existing one (or maybe a mechanical solution). the heat under the flywheel is what is causing the issue.

i constantly ask around and it appears (i'm not an expert) that the "blowup" issue is focused on the go fasts. apparently running the engine to it's max for an extended period of time and frequently piloting it thru the air is sop. if you launch a 330 more than once, you're in the wrong boat (and it's probably leased :mrgreen: ).

good luck, ron

 

[SeaBiscuit]

i have an '09 with f350s. i personally wouldn't put anything else on it. i did experience the casting issue with the starboard powerhead coming out of layup in 2010. yamaha replaced and all good since then. standard yamaha spec'd winterizing on the f350s is to run antifreeze through them.

i switched from stock 3 blades to the 4 and the difference is significant. you will loose a couple mph, but i don't run flat out more than once or twice a season (exercise only, i cruise around 30 mph). the improved bite is pretty much across the entire rpm spectrum. low speed control is better, following seas improved handling and rarely a prop ventilation. i frequently turn tight S turns at cruise to knock off bottom growth. i get hull slip without prop ventilation.

if you are buying used, make sure the new ecu's have been installed on the engines. it clocks the time at certain rpm ranges for the flywheel swap. i have to believe that they will come up with a high temp/strength polymer to replace the existing one (or maybe a mechanical solution). the heat under the flywheel is what is causing the issue.

i constantly ask around and it appears (i'm not an expert) that the "blowup" issue is focused on the go fasts. apparently running the engine to it's max for an extended period of time and frequently piloting it thru the air is sop. if you launch a 330 more than once, you're in the wrong boat (and it's probably leased :mrgreen: ).

good luck, ron

Thanks for the input, Ron.

The boat will a 2017 with new F350C engines. The new ECU's have the "80 hour clock" in them that will trigger a code to have the flywheels replaced. I'm worried that if I hit this 80 hours and I'm 100 miles off the beach, will there be enough time to get back in, you know? I understand yamaha is replacing the ECUs and flywheels in first generation F350 so they can all be tracked the same. Do yours have the new ECU? Also, yamaha explained that the issue only occurs between certain RPMs, do you know what the range is for this boat?

 

[ElyseM]

the range is basically my cruise speed. i don't think that it's a change NOW type situation though. you can verify with yamaha. when mine got swapped out under the original 300 hour plan, tech said they looked like new. same when the new ecu/flywheel swap went into play. pretty sure the issue is heat deterioration then running these engines balls out.

people seem to think that boat engines are superior to auto engines; probably because of ridiculous mfg speed bulletins. go run your car at 4k rpms for 5 hours and see how that goes. that's probably like first gear on the highway or a NASCAR track (and don't they rebuild those engines after each race :hmm ).

you can probably get reasonable data on which boats the 350's are being rebuilt if you ask your tech to run it down for you. again, ex that casting issue which is supposed to be resolved and also mitigated by the winterizing specs.

good luck, ron

 

[moklodge]

It is not an issue to run beyond the 80 hours. You certainly can make it back and schedule the repair soon thereafter.

 

[HMBJack]

I found this interesting which I copied over from another recent thread on this topic (under the "Tips and Modifications" forum). And, no doubt, the 350's will have more torque and higher WOT speed if that's what you want:

I just repowered my '03 330 Express with the F250XCA offshores (digital controls). I did a bunch of research on the F250's vs F300's (both the same 4.2L engine block). Grady actually had numbers for both these engines on their website as they used to offer the F250 too. Here's what they posted:

500HP
Best Cruise: 30.7 MPH (4300 RPM), 1.17 mpg
5000 RPM: 36.9 MPH, 1.02 mpg
Max Speed: 42.9 MPH, .90 mpg

600HP
Best Cruise: 29.9 MPH (4200 RPM), 1.25 mpg
5000 RPM: 37.1 MPH, 1.08 mpg
Max Speed: 44.6 MPH, .86 mpg

700HP
Best Cruise: 32.3 MPH (3900 RPM), 1.22 mpg
5000 RPM: 43 MPH, .95 mpg
Max Speed: 50.4 MPH, .75 mpg

So interestingly there's not a huge difference between the F250's and F300's...

 

[Comfortably Numb]

Seabiscuit,

When is your boat due to be completed? I have the same boat on order with F350s. Should be complete in the next couple of weeks.

I chose the F350s because of the additional torque. Under ideal conditions and a light load, the performance of the F300s was tempting, but when operating fully fueled and loaded in heavy seas, I feel you will need that extra torque and larger prop size to keep the boat on plane at lower speeds.

The Grady White website shows performance bulletins for the F300s and F350s, and performance numbers in cruising range were close, with the F350 boat running about 6 mph faster top end. I think they ran that F300 boat pretty light though.

Boating magazine ran the 330 with F300s and a *FULL FUEL* load, and the boat appeared to struggle holding plane at lower speeds. At 3500 RPM, the boat was still plowing through the water off-plane at only 12.95mph.

http://www.boatingmag.com/boats/grady-white-express-330

 

[Comfortably Numb]

So interestingly there's not a huge difference between the F250's and F300's...

Exactly. The F250 makes more hp than 250. The F300 makes less hp than 300.

 

[HMBJack]

One last thing to consider, actually two:

#1. In the years to come, an F400 might be available(?). If so, the F350's might seem "tame", and

#2. If ever you decide to add a Sea Keeper system (gyro stabilizer), you really need that extra HP from the 350's to carry the extra weight of the Sea Keeper (~800 lbs.). My friend has the 330 with the Pilot House (which adds weight) as well as a Sea Keeper gyro. His boat runs great but only because he has the 700 HP on his transom.

Here's what a Sea Keeper is - and believe me, they work >>> https://seakeeper.com/

 

[JJ2468]

650 hours of use in 3 years on f300s and just oil changes No doubt the f350s are better for this boat but I went for reliability and range. Love the 33 but it's a heavy boat and wants power. A little slower and more range was my goal

 

[Comfortably Numb]

Where do they mount a sea keeper on the 330 express?

 

[HMBJack]

Where do they mount a sea keeper on the 330 express?

>>> It is mounted in the aft berth. It takes up about 2/3rds of it. Could still have one small person sleep there. The SeaKeeper is in a 36" sized cube and is bolted to the ribs of the boat down low. Runs off AC power so your genset is running all the time. On the rough days, we take his boat! As a test, when we turn it off, we feel it big time and say to turn it back on. Quick!

 

[Comfortably Numb]

Thanks.

I was watching a video of the new Seakeeper 5 for smaller boats, and it runs off of DC. They installed it right in the leaning post of a center console, rather high center of gravity I thought.

Wonder what the long-term effects will be of all that torque twisting and pulling on the stringers over the years? I would assume that the factory would want to know in advance that a seakeeper is getting installed so that they can bulk up the attachment of the stringers where the Seakeeper will be placed.

If I were the factory, there is no way that I would warranty a hull that has that thing attached to the stringers, unless the seakeeper install team first went in and laid down additional glass to bulk up the stringers at the attachment point to the hull. Seakeeper creates a repeatable force in a direction and manner that the stringers were never intended to handle when the boat was designed. But I do like the concept!

 

[HMBJack]

Good point on the stress imposed on the stringers. I guess time will tell...

There are other boat manufacturers (big boats) that offer SeaKeeper as an option.
Be interesting to determine if any of them do as you suggest (I would).

 

[SeaBiscuit]

Seabiscuit,

When is your boat due to be completed? I have the same boat on order with F350s. Should be complete in the next couple of weeks.

I chose the F350s because of the additional torque. Under ideal conditions and a light load, the performance of the F300s was tempting, but when operating fully fueled and loaded in heavy seas, I feel you will need that extra torque and larger prop size to keep the boat on plane at lower speeds.

The Grady White website shows performance bulletins for the F300s and F350s, and performance numbers in cruising range were close, with the F350 boat running about 6 mph faster top end. I think they ran that F300 boat pretty light though.

Boating magazine ran the 330 with F300s and a *FULL FUEL* load, and the boat appeared to struggle holding plane at lower speeds. At 3500 RPM, the boat was still plowing through the water off-plane at only 12.95mph.

http://www.boatingmag.com/boats/grady-white-express-330

The build is going to happen in January and finish in the middle of February. We will have it for the Spring season. We are also going to stick with the 350s.

What hard top option did you choose? We currently have it ordered with the new AV2 top but are debating going with the full glass enclosure. I'm sure either option is quite a bit of added weight as well, making the 350s all the more appealing.

 

[SeaBiscuit]

One last thing to consider, actually two:

#1. In the years to come, an F400 might be available(?). If so, the F350's might seem "tame", and

#2. If ever you decide to add a Sea Keeper system (gyro stabilizer), you really need that extra HP from the 350's to carry the extra weight of the Sea Keeper (~800 lbs.). My friend has the 330 with the Pilot House (which adds weight) as well as a Sea Keeper gyro. His boat runs great but only because he has the 700 HP on his transom.

Here's what a Sea Keeper is - and believe me, they work >>> https://seakeeper.com/

Ill have to look into the sea keeper system. I'm not too familiar with it but it sounds interesting. Thanks for that info!

 

[Comfortably Numb]

I'm in Florida. Going with the standard top and curtains. AV2 is nice, but too much $$$. Hope I don't regret it on resale.

I had them delete the paint on the hard top stanchions. Paint and powdercoating just don't seem to hold up. At least paint (which Grady uses) can be touched up.

This photo is from a brand new 33 Freedom sitting on a dealer's lot:

http://imgur.com/a/X8Gwz