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Factory Tour
- Thread starter leek
- Start date
.Brad1
Well-Known Member
Bobp, Robots are being used in boat construction. Look into Sea Ray. They are using robots to spray the chopped glass into molds.
As for everyone saying composites are more expensive, please explain the price of Proline boats (the 20 ft sport is frequently on special for $22,000) and Hydra Sports Lightning series. Both use woodfree composite construction and both are low priced.
Regarding wood. There's obviously a strength aspect to wood that some builders are not finding with the composites. I used to receive "Boating" for numerous years (free subscription and they wouldn't quit sending it). Anyway, I'd read the reviews of all the boats in just about every issue. In many of the reviews, they would provide a brief description of construction techniques. I had noticed that on numerous inboard powered boats, composite stringers were used, except in the location that the engines were mounted. There, the builder would use wood. The reason given was strength. What's more, a couple boat brands I know made a switch to composite stringers, but continued to use wood transoms. Sea Swirl and Trophy to be specific. I questioned someone that worked for Trophy boats as to why they continued to use wood in their transoms, while the rest of the boat used composite coring. The answer they gave me was that they had yet to find anything as strong as wood. Since then, I think both brands may have switched to composite transoms (I beleive Sea Swirl has, but Trophy might not have).
Lastly, I think all of us are using the term "composite" incorrectly. I do believe that glass with wood coring is by definition a composite itself. Most have come to think of the term "composite" as using a material other than wood, but I think that is incorrect. At least based on a boat building article I once read.
As for everyone saying composites are more expensive, please explain the price of Proline boats (the 20 ft sport is frequently on special for $22,000) and Hydra Sports Lightning series. Both use woodfree composite construction and both are low priced.
Regarding wood. There's obviously a strength aspect to wood that some builders are not finding with the composites. I used to receive "Boating" for numerous years (free subscription and they wouldn't quit sending it). Anyway, I'd read the reviews of all the boats in just about every issue. In many of the reviews, they would provide a brief description of construction techniques. I had noticed that on numerous inboard powered boats, composite stringers were used, except in the location that the engines were mounted. There, the builder would use wood. The reason given was strength. What's more, a couple boat brands I know made a switch to composite stringers, but continued to use wood transoms. Sea Swirl and Trophy to be specific. I questioned someone that worked for Trophy boats as to why they continued to use wood in their transoms, while the rest of the boat used composite coring. The answer they gave me was that they had yet to find anything as strong as wood. Since then, I think both brands may have switched to composite transoms (I beleive Sea Swirl has, but Trophy might not have).
Lastly, I think all of us are using the term "composite" incorrectly. I do believe that glass with wood coring is by definition a composite itself. Most have come to think of the term "composite" as using a material other than wood, but I think that is incorrect. At least based on a boat building article I once read.
BobP
GreatGrady Captain
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Don't see how a robot can handle the grid and tabing, other than cutting the wood pieces to shape. Should conventional boat building techniques be employed as I expect Grady does, they count on labor heavily. All the same as conventional home construction, heavily labor intensive, no robots.
Wood is a natural product, the term composites were meant to cover synthetics that mimic wood and the shapes like plywood it comes in.
I don't think the boat builders are giving it to you straight, not one of them is going to say out load to be quoted - economics is the biggest player in decision making on structural choices. Of course the availability of suitable alternatives to wood for the particular application has to be available. For each dollar saved, they make their boat more attractive to the buying public vs. the other guy.
If the builders you mentioned are using more robots and computers and the boat design that supports their use, they made the initial big buck investment to convert over factory equipment and get rid of conventional wood stringer grid construction. I recall one of the boat builders at the show, where their liner and hull were formed together as one, acts like a unitized car body vs. body on frame Grady style construction, long passed in the car industry for economic driven reason, and all pieces are cut and welded by the hands of robots.
Grady factory reps told me some time ago they used lightweight construction techniques on the new X33 footer,so they were able to get away with twin 225s. What lightweight construction techniques or materials did they use? Did they tell a lie?
Isn't someone using a one piece precasted ceramic transom ?
Wood is a natural product, the term composites were meant to cover synthetics that mimic wood and the shapes like plywood it comes in.
I don't think the boat builders are giving it to you straight, not one of them is going to say out load to be quoted - economics is the biggest player in decision making on structural choices. Of course the availability of suitable alternatives to wood for the particular application has to be available. For each dollar saved, they make their boat more attractive to the buying public vs. the other guy.
If the builders you mentioned are using more robots and computers and the boat design that supports their use, they made the initial big buck investment to convert over factory equipment and get rid of conventional wood stringer grid construction. I recall one of the boat builders at the show, where their liner and hull were formed together as one, acts like a unitized car body vs. body on frame Grady style construction, long passed in the car industry for economic driven reason, and all pieces are cut and welded by the hands of robots.
Grady factory reps told me some time ago they used lightweight construction techniques on the new X33 footer,so they were able to get away with twin 225s. What lightweight construction techniques or materials did they use? Did they tell a lie?
Isn't someone using a one piece precasted ceramic transom ?
catch22
Well-Known Member
I've owned 4 different Grady Whites and I was very happy with them.
Where I boat, (CapeMay, NJ and Delaware bay) everywhere you look there's one. They are, without a doubt, one of the most popular boats out there...why is that? Are there better boats?.... sure, but who cares. :lol:
Where I boat, (CapeMay, NJ and Delaware bay) everywhere you look there's one. They are, without a doubt, one of the most popular boats out there...why is that? Are there better boats?.... sure, but who cares. :lol:
Brad1
Well-Known Member
Bobp,
Sea Ray (the company that is using robots to shoot glass into the molds) is owned by Brunswick. So they proabably do have the financial backing to make big changes in their production techniques. There was an article in Trailer Boats magazine which showed how they're using robots in their plant for the purpose I mentioned. I would be surprised if an individual builder would take on something like that though.
Brad
Sea Ray (the company that is using robots to shoot glass into the molds) is owned by Brunswick. So they proabably do have the financial backing to make big changes in their production techniques. There was an article in Trailer Boats magazine which showed how they're using robots in their plant for the purpose I mentioned. I would be surprised if an individual builder would take on something like that though.
Brad
Having gone through the factory tour myself I have to say I was shocked at the 'low tech' feel of the operation. Guys with drills and tool belts all over the place. Given the low volume of most manufacturers I am sure the capital investment in robotics is cost prohibitive to most manufacturers. It is almost hard to imaging that 2 boats would come out the same given the labor intensive feel of the operation. I have nothing else to compare it to except having visited the boat yards of Paul Mann and other cold mold custom boat manufacturers. Talk about labor intensive and use of wood there!!!
Capt Armchair
GreatGrady Captain
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GW charges the same as top tier boats like Intrepid, SeeVee, and Yellowfin, and none of them have wood stringers. Good enough for you or are you a GW robot too ??[/quote]
And what kind of boats are the ones you listed? Narrow beam center consoles (my Sailfish is 6" narrower than a 36' Yellowfin) made for the tournament type. [/quote]
Intrepid's 475 Sport Yacht is 47'6" long and 13'8" wide yet you still refer to it as a "narrow beam center console" ??? They've got a 2 year wait for their boats, per the original poster GW has layed off employees and cut their hourly work week back 20 %. Now which company's boats are in the highest demand again ?
But you keep spouting the corporate line, Eddie laughs at you all the way to the bank.[/quote]
This is assinine. Intrepid builds far, far less boats than GW and they have the advantage of occupying a unique niche. Naturally there is a wait with a builder that makes maybe 30-40 boats a year v. Grady making 250+ in a slow year.
SoutheastFL
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Capt Armchair said:This is assinine. Intrepid builds far, far less boats than GW and they have the advantage of occupying a unique niche. Naturally there is a wait with a builder that makes maybe 30-40 boats a year v. Grady making 250+ in a slow year.
Building quality takes time instead of just slapping wood stringers together. If you've been through Intrepids factory like I have you'd see the difference in the first minute.
Capt Armchair
GreatGrady Captain
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SoutheastFL said:Intrepid's 475 Sport Yacht is 47'6" long and 13'8" wide yet you still refer to it as a "narrow beam center console" ??? They've got a 2 year wait for their boats, per the original poster GW has layed off employees and cut their hourly work week back 20 %. Now which company's boats are in the highest demand again ?
But you keep spouting the corporate line, Eddie laughs at you all the way to the bank.
I did not say it does not take time. However, any operation that is efficiently run can be scaled to increase production and can still put forth quality....Honda anyone??
You seem to be saying GW are overpriced and of inferior quality.
1. In the interest of fairness, what kind of boat do you own?
2. When did you visit the Intrepid factory and what did you observe that has you so excited?
3. Ever owned a Grady?
4. Ever toured GW factory?
SoutheastFL said:Building quality takes time instead of just slapping wood stringers together. If you've been through Intrepids factory like I have you'd see the difference in the first minute.
Is that GW does???!....
I think they are both fine boats personally, my buddy has one and I have a Marlin, both are quality rigs.
gradyfish22
GreatGrady Captain
Brad1, Sea Ray has had huge build issues using the robots and had some recalls on boats lately, I'm not sure the technology is at the point where it makes sense to go that route, some day it may be. Other companies have used robots to use ropeline and other materials to build boats, they come out great and strong with no voids, but lack a high gloss finish and are not very desierable to the average buyer, I'm sure down the road they will be incorporated more, but the technology in the inudstry is just not there for full automization. The few companies that have tried have failed or had big problems and do not recommend it to others interested, that should tell you something.
megabytes
GreatGrady Captain
GW makes 1000-1200 boats per year. I believe they peaked somewhere south of 1500. All boats are presold to dealers so they can maximize resource utilization.
It makes no sense to compare GW to Intrepid anymore then to Hatteras. Different boats.
It makes no sense to compare GW to Intrepid anymore then to Hatteras. Different boats.
Brad1
Well-Known Member
gradyfish22 said:Brad1, Sea Ray has had huge build issues using the robots and had some recalls on boats lately, I'm not sure the technology is at the point where it makes sense to go that route, some day it may be. Other companies have used robots to use ropeline and other materials to build boats, they come out great and strong with no voids, but lack a high gloss finish and are not very desierable to the average buyer, I'm sure down the road they will be incorporated more, but the technology in the inudstry is just not there for full automization. The few companies that have tried have failed or had big problems and do not recommend it to others interested, that should tell you something.
The robotic chopped glass gun machines is part of Sea Ray's process for containing styrene emmissions. The robots shoot the glass into the mold and the mold is in a enclosed room. I don't necessarily think it makes for a quality improvement, afterall it is chopped glass. I think their goal is more consistency and containment of styrene emmissions. Genmar is going after those two goals by using VEC. Different process than what Sea Ray is doing, but same goals.
I could see where vacum bagging (scrimp) makes alot of sense.