Forward Bilge Question- Related to Lake Erie Run

[wahoo33417]

Question and possible answer to pose to this group.

Every few days while making my trek across Lake Erie, I could hand pump 2-3 gallons of water from the forward bilge.

I didn’t like that. Especially while traveling, I like dry bilges so I don’t have to wonder where the water came from. The rear bilge remained dry.

Getting back to forward bilge.

Some relevant facts:

1. The water was always below the level of the float switch during my evening checks.

2. I know the bilge pump itself was working. It is possible that it came on during the day, while I was running, and I would not have noticed it.

3. We had some afternoon T-storms, which have pushed water around my anchor locker lid before, but not this volume. And there were days with no rain and bilge still collected water.

4. Never ran in water rough enough to take any water over the bow.

5. Hose connection to bilge pump is secure.

6. Forward bilge discharge through-hull fitting is just above the water line on the starboard side.

7. On most days I was taking a steep chop on my starboard side.

8. When I put the boat on the trailer at the end of the trip I could find no other method of water intrusion. Rubrail was good. Obviously, could only see and feel short distance into through-hulls, but 'seemed' okay.

So, in other's experience, can a persistent chop push that volume of water up and through a hose and bilge pump?

Thanks, Rob

 

[Doc Stressor]

The forward bilge of my 226 always has water even though I keep the boat at a covered high and dry marina. The forward bilge is the lowest part of the hull when the boat is at rest in the water. Rain, spray and washdown water tends to accumulate in there. Since the bilge pump is mounted on a high spot, I can pump 5 gallons of water out of there without tripping the pump switch.

There is a PVC tube connecting the fore and aft bilges, so water can run forward when the boat is at rest. My running angle once on plane is not high enough to completely drain the water aft.

It's really not a big deal, but I pump it out regularly in order to keep my weight down and to reduce moisture accumulation in the cabin.

 

[SkunkBoat]

thats a tough one.
Most of us never check it that often and don't normally pump out the bit that remains.
Its always going to collect forward. It can come from anywhere.

One thing that would be important to know is "did the pump come on and pump out even more water than you are seeing?"
They make a system to record that. Probably a good thing to have if you suspect a slow leak.

 

[family affair]

Our boat does the same. From our experience most of it was from water getting past the deck seals. I had not thought about it coming through the discharge hose. I don't know how bilge pumps are designed and if that's possible. But if it is, it very well could be.
Come to think of it, we get water in the sink sometimes while under way, so you could be right.

 

[DennisG01]

Any overboard discharge hose (primarily if the hose the particular goes downward after the thru-hull) should be configured such that it forms an upward loop right before the thru-hull. This is done to prevent splashing water from entering. It may not prevent all of it, but it does a really good job. You can check for that, to start with.

Any fitting that hasn't been sealed in a while (bow eye, cleats, stanchion bases, rubrail, etc) is suspect. Even if it "looks" good.

Often, this can be figured out by spraying areas with a hose, after starting with a dry bilge, and observing closely. Having a helper is a good idea.

 

[journeyman]

I had a 06 Journey that I bought new in 07. Great boat, loved it! If memory serves, there are 5 sections in the bilges. Cabin area (where the forward bilge pump is located), 2 below the deck panel between the helm seats (1 for plumbing etc and 1 where the aux fuel tank would be if you have it), the main fuel tank area and the aft bilge where the aft bilge pump is located. In the aft bilge, there are 2 drains that empty into it. The cabin bilge empties into the next section between the helm seats and then drains directly to the aft bilge. The aux tank bilge drains to the main fuel tank bilge and then to the aft bilge. Not trying to be wordy here, I'll get to my point...

Early on with my boat, I noticed the same thing. water collecting in the cabin bilge. Not enough to trip the pump but more than I'd like. That's when I learned how everything drained down there. The drain between the cabin bilge and the next section was really clogged with what I could only conclude was construction debris. Chunks of hardened resin and fiberglass were blocking it from draining. After cleaning it out using a snake, I checked the other sections and found a bit more but not as much as in the first section.

End result was that water still collected in the forward section because of the boats' attitude, but when I ran the boat off plane with the bow high, everything drain to the aft bilge and I could run it manually and get most of the water out.

Other than that, the only other thing I can suggest is that you may have a small leak in the fresh water system. That, in conjunction with the above could be why there always seems to be water in the cabin bilge. The pump and tank are in the bilge area next door.

Good luck and congrats on your travels!

 

[wahoo33417]

Thanks for all the thoughts. I will follow up on each. Every sound or bit of water gets a elevated in my mind when so far from home.

Our boat's sink also would get wet on a rough day (I put a cork in it) which led me to wonder about intrusion here. The idea of a loop is a good one, but I'm not sure there is sufficient room for an effective loop on this model. Certainly not a loop that can come near as high as the sink. I’m anxious to get down there and see.

Obstruction between forward and rear bilges seems very likely. There was 'stuff'' in there when I did a little reaching around. But honestly, I didn’t reach too hard, because I really wanted to figure out the cause. If it all drained rearward, that would have been harder to do.

And of course every fitting should be checked on a soon-to-be 14 year old boat.

On the first trip I did my hauler took me from west palm beach, FL to Norfolk, VA, the start of the ICW. When we put the boat in the water, he said, after trailering that distance, something has vibrated loose, best that you find it before it finds you.

He was right. Now I build a 'go over the whole boat'' time into the start of each trip. I didn’t see this issue coming.

 

[DennisG01]

FYI, the upward loop doesn't need to be big to be effective. In fact, as small as you can make it without creasing the hose is fine. Probably 4" in diameter, give or take.

 

[Toothpick 10]

Have you been using your anchor? Keep in mind that the anchor locker drains into the bilge. Therefore, a wet rode will put some water into that front bilge area. I always seem to have about an inch of water in mine.

 

[Jonah]

Hi Rob,

I've been wondering similar things about my 1995 272. I've recently relaxed a bit, as I've realized that there are so many places for water to leak into the bilge: deck plates, anchor locker, wet kids playing in the cabin, and even the drain holes in my built-in cupholders by the stern livewell. I even found that when my cabin windows' "weep holes" were clogged from years of accumulation, a bit of water was leaking in there as well. (And yes, I've had trouble with my rub-rail as well. See link below.)

If you'd really like to narrow it down, you can install a tracker on your bilge pump, to get a sense of how often it's pumping water out (which you don't see), as SkunkBoat suggested. To see whether your front bilge is draining properly when the bow is elevated, you can squirt some food coloring down there and then hold the boat at an incline, not quite getting on plane, and have a friend see if colored water makes it to the stern bilge. And then you can check, during rainstorms or with a friend holding a hose, to see whether water is coming in any of the places I mentioned above.

Also, was it saltwater or freshwater that you pumped out?

Rub Rail thread: http://www.greatgrady.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=25454

My bilge thread: http://www.greatgrady.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=25709

 

[ROBERTH]

A couple of things come to mind on this water subject in the bilge.

1. Just after I got my boat and was learning how it was plumbed and drains, the PVC pipe that runs aft from forward bilge was the only way for water to flow forward or aft depending on boats attitude. I got down in the forward access and used the pressure of the water hose to force water to the back and ensured it was flowing correctly. You should have seen the junk that came out, including a piece of rubber stripping that was half way clogging it up.
Cleaned it out and then the water would drain aft correctly and let me get it out with the bilge pump either by plowing the water or when loading on trailer and removing drain plug.

2. To find water leaks or sources of water leaks, I have layed down and put a high power spotlight down where the water is and start watching. I have found water running while looking with this bright light which told me I had a leak coming from somewhere. On my boat, it has been a fresh water leak from a hose clamp.

3. Last year, I had enough of water getting in, so replaced the rubber on all the window channels, removed the rub rail and re-caulked and this year, so far, water tight and no leaking.

It is always a challenge to find a leak or source of water.

The other posters here have stated some of the obvious. Yes, the anchor locker and hole from windlass allow rain water or over spray into the bilge as well. Likely, have still missed some other ways it can get in!

 

[Jonah]

1. Just after I got my boat and was learning how it was plumbed and drains, the PVC pipe that runs aft from forward bilge was the only way for water to flow forward or aft depending on boats attitude. I got down in the forward access and used the pressure of the water hose to force water to the back and ensured it was flowing correctly. You should have seen the junk that came out, including a piece of rubber stripping that was half way clogging it up. Cleaned it out and then the water would drain aft correctly and let me get it out with the bilge pump either by plowing the water or when loading on trailer and removing drain plug.

Thanks Roberth,

I have wondered about this too. At first, I thought there was a single PVC pipe running from my forward bilge all the way (under the tanks) to the aft bilge. But I later heard that there is a much shorter PVC pipe that runs from the forward bilge to the open area below the tanks, and then another PVC pipe that runs from there to the aft bilge. Does anyone have a drawing of these pipes and how they connect and drain? Or can anyone shed some light on it? I don't want to have to remove my tanks just to understand the flow of things.

 

[ROBERTH]

Jonah, see if you can find the original Grady Manual from the Grady site. Mine shows the drain tube routing details.

Another thought, if you have a pressured water hose close enough, you can put some through your forward pipe and have someone check to see if it immediately comes out the aft drain. If not, then it likely is running around somewhere else. I can see the pipe coming out of the bulkhead both fore and aft.

 

[Jonah]

Thanks Roberth,

I actually do have my original manual, and see no diagrams of the piping. (In 1995, only one manual was produced for all models of 26' and up.)

I'll take your advice and try the hose trick. If I get immediate flow in the aft bilge, then perhaps it's a single pipe the whole way. If not (and I think not), then I'll believe I have empty space under the tanks, with shorter pipes connecting it to the front and aft bilges.

Anyway, I won't hijack the thread here with any further comments on my own bilge curiosities. If I learn anything, I'll update the "Bilges for Beginners" thread that I made.

 

[wahoo33417]

Well the boat returned home with the forward bilge bone-dry. This despite the driver going through quite a bit of rain on the east coast, he said. But he always trailers with the drain plug out, so I’m guessing that he went up and down enough grades to move any water to the rear.

That was helpful because it gave me a good starting point for the hose test suggested above. I taped over the anchor locker lid because I already know it can be overwhelmed with a hose. I also put rubber stoppers in through-hulls in first test.

End result is I managed to get some water past the port side window and get the carpet wet. Turns out those screws were a bit loose. No discernible water came in around rubrail, or any other fitting including around through-hull.

Unfortunately, lightning came up before I got to try to mimick a chop splashing against a through-hull.

But I’ll try to get my daughter who is home from college for another week to join me in this effort. She could fit herself down in there with a flashlight much easier than I can!

To answer an earlier question, I didn’t use the anchor at all on this trip.

I’m becoming more convinced that water entered through the through-hull.

 

[ROBERTH]

One thing to mention is when I was doing the water testing, I did get some water seepage around the window channels, thus why I replaced those channels.

However, I could never get water to come in the cabin with a hose.

Figured what was happening is when running offshore in seas, the pressure coming up the sheer and putting pressure on the sides inwards was possibly opening up the rub rail cap allowing the pressured water to enter.

One day when running in some heavy seas, I stopped the boat after about an hour of this and went down into the cabin. What I found was I was right on my assumption....lots of water was running down the carpet sides of the hull down onto the berth and then down the floor to drain into bilge.

I have since resealed as I mentioned by removing the rails, etc. Have been in the same conditions since and she is bone dry!

Point is that you might not find the leaking with a hose. :roll:

 

[Jonah]

Point is that you might not find the leaking with a hose. :roll:

Hi again,

The same was true for me. But when I removed the center channel of the rub-rail, and sprayed the hose directly inside, I was able to get water on the cabin carpet quite quickly. I'll post my link below, in case Wahoo wants to test for that again before concluding it's the thru-hull.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=25454

 

[wahoo33417]

Jonah. Thanks for the link. It’s a good idea for me to check those screws. I’ve been pretty tough on the rubrails on these trips when pulling in to so many unfamiliar marinas.

The carpet stayed dry while the forward bilge was collecting water. It didn’t get wet until I sprayed the port window with the hose.

Still, just like some of the window screws were loose, wouldn’t hurt to check rubrail screws.

Thanks, Rob

 

[wahoo33417]

Hmmmm. Somehow I lost a post I thought I had made. We did the test of hitting the through-hull with a hose with a sweeping motion while standing in the boat. Even though it was at a poor angle, water came in the hose and past the bilge pump within seconds.

While it may not have been the only culprit, I’m convinced it was the primary one.

I guess I took the waves at an optimum angle for water to climb up and in. And did so for a number of days in a row.

Not something that was ever an issue before and may never be again. But I’ll certainly keep an eye on it. And I’ll probably test that bilge pump more frequently.

Rob

 

[family affair]

Thanks for the update! Good to know.