Four Stroke on 228G

[uncljohn]

So I guess Grady was fraudulent when they affixed the plate to my bracket hull which says max HP 280? Who woulda thunk that 280 didn't really mean 280! None-the -less, I give up. Guess I'll just go fishin in my over-stressed, over-loaded junk heap with that damned ole 4 stroker. Somehow it always manages to get me home again .. and again .. and again .. and again ... :wink:

Sorry but in no way does "max 280 HP" give ANY indication as to max weight of engines hanging from the transom. You can try to believe there is a direct connection, and that Grady is saying that you CAN hang a 250F on (but not a 300F!) your transom. But they are not.

That plate you reference also says something about max # of passengers and max load weight. So if that says your boat is rated for 6 passengers or 1200# of load, and each of your passengers weighs 300#, is Grady lying if you can only get 4 passengers on, when the plate said you could have 6?!? Or is Grady saying the weight is not as important as the # of passengers? Hmmmm...... :wink:

There was a post last spring about a new 228G with a four stroke on it and every time someone stood in the back corner, water would flood the deck from the scuppers. This was a DIRECT result of having an 4S engine that was too heavy.

 

[BobP]

Curm, look at the weight of a 300 HPDi vs. the new F300 V8 monstrosity.

Same applies for 300 HP rated boats. It's weight too, not HP alone.

 

[SlimJim]

So I guess Grady was fraudulent when they affixed the plate to my bracket hull which says max HP 280? Who woulda thunk that 280 didn't really mean 280! None-the -less, I give up. Guess I'll just go fishin in my over-stressed, over-loaded junk heap with that damned ole 4 stroker. Somehow it always manages to get me home again .. and again .. and again .. and again ... :wink:

Put a full load on your boat and get hit with a good wave that puts a ton of sea water on your deck and see if Grady will back you up with your 280 hp plate. :wink:

 

[gradyfish22]

So I guess Grady was fraudulent when they affixed the plate to my bracket hull which says max HP 280? Who woulda thunk that 280 didn't really mean 280! None-the -less, I give up. Guess I'll just go fishin in my over-stressed, over-loaded junk heap with that damned ole 4 stroker. Somehow it always manages to get me home again .. and again .. and again .. and again ... :wink:

The 280 was rated as a max hp as an I/O, the engine must meet the weight that Grady had designed to, there was a 280hp engine that was a weight that let the boat sit correctly, there was no 280hp outboard....and probably never will be so using that as a limit is not logical for an outboard. I agree that there should be separate hp and weight ratings on models that have both outboard or I/O options to clear up this confusion.

 

[Grouper Duper]

Wow, I had no idea this post would be so passionate! I might as well have started a 2wd vs. 4wd thread...or gas vs. diesel truck, or the dreaded mono vs. cat hull!

Anyway, I'm also surprised we haven't heard from more people who have actually DONE it, rather than so much speculation. I took a lot of speculated crap when I bought a "TOYota" for my tow vehicle. Seven years later, I've had to replace one rear axle seal that had a slight leak, and I JUST replaced the original battery...best vehicle I've ever owned. I'm not complaining about the speculation; I truly appreciate all the opinions. It's just that I see them on the water with 4 strokes and there are some on the market that way; I expected to find more people on here with them, that's all.

Though I'm still looking at all my options, I'd still like to hear from others that have tried it. Especially if you also tow it with a Japanese, gas-powered, two-wheel drive! Ha!

 

[Curmudgeon]

Put a full load on your boat and get hit with a good wave that puts a ton of sea water on your deck and see if Grady will back you up with your 280 hp plate.

Put a full load on any 22'er and it would likely be in trouble when you add a ton of water, so that's really a senseless argument. I have, however, taken a wake from a pilot boat that put about 5" front to back (actually broke a windshield bracket when it came aboard). Floated just fine for the 5 minutes it took to for the scuppers to drain and get the cockpit back in good order, then it was merrily on our way, shaken but otherwise none the worse for wear. In any event, were push come to shove in a civil liability suit, I believe the factory mounted spec plate would likely hold more water [pun intended] than an undisclosed secret limitation ... :wink:

Bob, obviously weight is a factor, and most likely "the" factor, but it has to equate to some engine size limit for the period or else the number is totally meaningless. The difference in weight between a current 200/225 HPDI and F200/225 is a whopping 108# (heck, I had near that much water weight in my bracket before I fixed the leak). Since you've never seen an engine weight limitation from Grady, past or present, not exactly a harbinger of catastrophe.

uncljohn, that's the reason the plate says 6 people OR 1200#. In layman's terms, add "whichever occurs first" and it's fairly self-explanatory ...

 

[SlimJim]

Wow, I had no idea this post would be so passionate! I might as well have started a 2wd vs. 4wd thread...or gas vs. diesel truck, or the dreaded mono vs. cat hull!

Anyway, I'm also surprised we haven't heard from more people who have actually DONE it, rather than so much speculation. I took a lot of speculated crap when I bought a "TOYota" for my tow vehicle. Seven years later, I've had to replace one rear axle seal that had a slight leak, and I JUST replaced the original battery...best vehicle I've ever owned. I'm not complaining about the speculation; I truly appreciate all the opinions. It's just that I see them on the water with 4 strokes and there are some on the market that way; I expected to find more people on here with them, that's all.

Though I'm still looking at all my options, I'd still like to hear from others that have tried it. Especially if you also tow it with a Japanese, gas-powered, two-wheel drive! Ha!

Well I am trying to tell you that I in fact have done it!!and had a 1990 24 ft GW with a 2004 Yamaha 225 hp 4 stroke. I also have a big SUV TOYOTA that tows great and gets big boats in and out of the water on bad ramps just fine. Anyway If I were you I would NOT put a heavy 4 stroke on your boat. If thats not what you wanted to hear I am sorry but thats the way I feel. If you want to hear what you want to hear maybe you should post on some other sites. I am just being honest with you. If you really want a 4 stroke thats over 200hp then go ahead and put one on, if your scuppers are under water with no one on your boat good luck. Maybe it will be ok. Make sure you let us know what you end up doing and make sure you let us know how your boat sits in the water and how it rides after you change the power. Take some pictures before and after. I would love to see them. I wish you the best.

 

[SlimJim]

Put a full load on your boat and get hit with a good wave that puts a ton of sea water on your deck and see if Grady will back you up with your 280 hp plate.

Put a full load on any 22'er and it would likely be in trouble when you add a ton of water, so that's really a senseless argument. I have, however, taken a wake from a pilot boat that put about 5" front to back (actually broke a windshield bracket when it came aboard). Floated just fine for the 5 minutes it took to for the scuppers to drain and get the cockpit back in good order, then it was merrily on our way, shaken but otherwise none the worse for wear. In any event, were push come to shove in a civil liability suit, I believe the factory mounted spec plate would likely hold more water [pun intended] than an undisclosed secret limitation ... :wink:

Bob, obviously weight is a factor, and most likely "the" factor, but it has to equate to some engine size limit for the period or else the number is totally meaningless. The difference in weight between a current 200/225 HPDI and F200/225 is a whopping 108# (heck, I had near that much water weight in my bracket before I fixed the leak). Since you've never seen an engine weight limitation from Grady, past or present, not exactly a harbinger of catastrophe.

uncljohn, that's the reason the plate says 6 people OR 1200#. In layman's terms, add "whichever occurs first" and it's fairly self-explanatory ...

Maybe its senseless to someone whos already done it? Anyway in a suit Lawyers would have a field day with you in court. Thats the type of stuff they love to find. Trust me :lol: :wink: I know.

 

[Curmudgeon]

Trust me I know.

Maybe, as far as lawyers go. As for 4 strokes on a 22'er, I'll opt for actual experience over conjecture.

Here's what Grady really says about the issue, not exactly the adamant disclaimer of "oh, hell no, don't even think about it" ...

Can I repower my older Grady-White with new four stroke power?

The three most important factors to consider when repowering an older Grady-White with four stroke power are:
1) engine weight,
2) engine centers on twin engine applications and
3) maintenance of the boat.

Older Grady-White boats were designed for the lighter two stroke engines available at the time. Before purchasing the heavier four stroke engines, we recommend simulating the additional weight of the four stroke engine(s), while the boat is at rest in the water, to see how the additional weight affects the waterline of the boat.

There's more about spacing twins and installation, but this is the meat and it's not exactly gloom, doom, or instant catastrophe. My waterline, ride, handling, and inherent safety have not been compromised, others should exercise due diligence and make that determination for themselves as suggested by the manufacturer. It's a big ocean, and we are but small bits of flotsam there on... :wink:

 

[B-Faithful]

An Optimax would work also but every boat I've run with an Optimax has been much noisier and Mercs are known to last about half the life of a Yamaha, a Merc may be quicker but do not have the long life.

That is horse stuffing as far as longevity goes. I know some opti owners with thousands of hours on their motors. You do have to run the appropriate oil and keep up with regular maintenance. Sine the early years 90% of the time if you hear of a failure it is either a fluke thing, some one who doesnt run the right oil and had excessive carbon build up/not appropriate lubrication or the motor was on a go fast boat and has spent most its hours at WOT and in and out of the water constantly (due to power, it is the choice of the go fast guys). I would argue that the OptiMax is the best DFI on the market. In the bass boat community where power to weight ratio matters, the OptiMax dominates the market. It also has been winning all the DFI awards lately too (even over the Etec). Besides with the Merc you can get DTS, Smartcraft and a better factory prop selection than any other brand. All the other brands are still trying to catch up and add DTS and match the smartcraft system to this day even on their fourstrokes.

 

[BobP]

At the minimum, the orignal poster may see some toe wetting water in the cockpit on occassion with the extra 100 plus pounds back there, that he didn't see before.

The 4 stroke extra weight is never a positive thing, no speculation about it.

It would be nice to know now what to expect, however, I think it really doesn't matter. I think the guy is hell bent on 4 stroke as typically is the case, so whatever happens, happens, and he will have to live with it.

Just like the other crap going on unique to 4 strokes one can read about over at THT that not one of those owners ever expected to have to deal with.

 

[SlimJim]

One thing I hate is being on a hot bite of fish in the cockpit with 2 or 3 other guys and cold water coming thru the scuppers while the boat is bobbing up and down on a drift of tuna. I like a dry deck while fishing or cruising. If you put the 4 stroke on you have a chance of this happening, it might not but it could so if you can live with it so be it. I do love the 4 stroke engines, but the 225 is a little on the doggy slow side as well as its a heavy engine.

 

[BobP]

Slim, the guy will fix the problem (if it occurs) by picking up a pair of boots on the way home from the marina with his wet cold feet.

Perhaps Grady Customer Service should recommend a pair of boots with each 4 stroke repowering ! I wonder how that would go over? It sure would do the trick.

A better idea, Yamaha includes the boots on a dealer repower ! Designer Yamaha boots with the Yamaha logo on them!

"$750 dealer credit plus desiger Yamaha logo waterproof boots" (for 4 stroke repowering only, not applicable to VMAX, HPDIs, offer expires June 30th , 2008").

Gotta luv Fridays, and the 18th zillion time a member asked about repowering an older Grady with 4 strokes - and the usual response from Grady. They must be bored to death manning those phones and screens. The boot idea ought to perk the sleepy heads up.

 

[Grouper Duper]

I found a decent deal on a low-time 200 HPDI nearby, and am considering that as well (I just hate the thought of less power than my responsive 225 EFI). There continue to be interesting posts here, so I'll keep checking back!

Though I don't want the scuppers in the water and won't do it if that's true, no one complains about wet toes in Florida! I'll be testing it with my "sit on it" theory this weekend.

Sorry, there will never be a Merc on one of my boats. I also have spent my time and money with JohnnyRude/OMC/Bomb etc., and that won't be happening either, even though I've read and heard good things about the Etec. Frankly, if I were putting together a brand-new boat (never would do that, but if), it would have Suzuki four strokes on it. I haven't read anything bad about them, and every owner I've met loves them. Other than that, I'm sticking to Yamahas. Although a good friend has twin Hondas, and they've been great, too.

Thanks for all the opinions! :lol:

 

[SlimJim]

the only bad thing I have heard about suzks are the parts. Other then that I have heard good things about them. That being said its hard to beat a Yamaha, for parts, and running. Also Resale value. Again, I am not saying that your scuppers will be under water, I don't think you will be able to tell until you put one on, but on my 1990 they did sit underwater. Whatever you end up doing wish you the best.

 

[BobP]

Grouper, you say you are considering an F225 or F250 but are concerned with loss of power / responsiveness of the 200 HPDI vs. 225EFI ?

You may not be impressed with the F250 as expected, but you may wonder what is wrong with the F225.

Get the Zuki 300 if you want to be noticably impressed by a 4 stroke. vs. the 225 EFI

 

[Grouper Duper]

Though I've still not decided what to do, I wanted to post the results of my simple test/observation on the boat today.

First, here's a new one to me and maybe to some of you: the scupper exits are actually underwater at rest, from the factory. The drains in the cockpit are well above the waterline (because the whole cockpit is), but the rubber valves on the transom are much lower than those and sit in the water.

Second, a dealer visit. Every GW I saw had a four-stroke on it, and the weight balance doesn't appear to be significantly different than my boat. Sure, the SV2 hull rides different, but the overall balance and layout are very similar. Plus, they had multiple boat versions with the same hull, with vastly different weight balances (cabin or no, hardtop or no, some hulls allow singles OR twins, etc.).

Third, the test. While at rest in the water, I had my wife measure down the scupper holes in the cockpit to the water level while I was at the helm. I then moved my 200-lb body to straddle the current outboard and had her measure again. When moving from the transom to the top of the motor, the water level didn't change at all. When moving from all the way at the helm to the top of the motor, the water level in the scupper holes did come up about a half inch (still several inches below cockpit level).

So, the conclusion is that the doomsday visions of the boat being wildly out of trim and being unsafe with the weight of a four-stroke out on the bracket are bunk. The net gain of the 4S is likely to be 60 - 70 pounds (max of 100 if you don't count removing the oil tank), and I put a full 200 pounds back there with very little change in the boat.

Now maybe mine's a litttle more forward-biased than some, since I have a full fiberglass hardtop, rocket launcher and radio box all added above the cabin, but it still seems like a minimal change on a 6000-pound package.

As I've said, I haven't made up my mind, but I'm definately not ruling out a four stroke due to the weight issue (speculation vs. my test and owner reports).

I agree with the comments that a F225 might be disappointing performance-wise after the EFI two stroke, from many comments I've read. However, I've read good things about the F250, and it's only around ten pounds more F225. So far, it looks like it's down to a 200 HPDI (again, lots of great comments) or F250, and will depend on the right deal.

Again, thanks for all the replies and spirited debate! I always learn a lot from this forum.

 

[BobP]

The Yamaha/Grady plan for SW market boats is 4 strokes, VMAX (2 strokes) for the FW market. Doesn't surprise me that's what you saw.

The F250 is a good engine, similar in weight to the F225.

Go for it!

 

[Grouper Duper]

Here's another update. I had written directly to Grady-White through their website, after following the FAQ they have posted about repowering. Here is the response that I got today:

Thanks for writing, Deric.

With the information you have provided I would be pretty confident that the F250 will work just fine. We recommend these tests when repowering older boats just for that reason. Far better to find out the additional weight of the big(200+) 4strokes is an issue before purchasing said motor. Hope you have a great upcoming boating season!

Bert Kelly
Customer Relations
Grady-White Boats

Pretty good service from them!

 

[B-Faithful]

An Optimax would work also but every boat I've run with an Optimax has been much noisier and Mercs are known to last about half the life of a Yamaha, a Merc may be quicker but do not have the long life.

I also want to note that you replied to another thread this way:

Plus I'm not a Brunswick fan, they are a competitor of mine !!

http://www.greatgrady.com/forum/viewtop ... 73&start=0