Hull Deck Joint adhesive

lewis_levin

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What adhesive does Grady use on the hull deck joint of more recent boats? I have a 2005 Seafarer. I am generally unimpressed with how Grady does the joint. There are pin-sized self-tapping screws and a very few, widely spaced rivets with quite tiny heads on the blind-side. But, if Grady is using an appropriate adhesive and really making the joint tight so that the adhesive bonds without a lot of voids, then the fasteners might be less crucial.

Thanks--this is part of thinking about next, larger boat and whether Grady should be in the consideration set or not.
 

lewis_levin

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Well, to the extent the rubrail covers the hull deck joint, sure. But, strictly speaking the hull-deck joint is where the hull is fastened to the deck.

The rub rail can be attached at the same point and typically is for a lot of powerboats because it is cheaper to do it that way and the rubrail covers up the joint, reducing finishing work. But, the rub rail doesn't have to be in the same place.
 

richie rich

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Not sure about GW per se, but most boat builders who combine 2 and 3 peice hulls together use a 2-part methacrylate structural bonding adhesive for bonding joints, seams and grid systems. Usually, pre-metered and mixed with a dispensing machine. Its very strong, agressive, yet it has enough give to allow stringer systems to flex a little and not crack a joint from being too brittle. A company like ITW makes Plexus brand that's very popular. How a boat builder fastens the joint is up to the designer. Some use flat joints, some overlap and form a cup etc......Ususally, once the bond is made the mechanical fasteners don't do very much except hold the rub rail. If you bond the hull, the deck and cap all flat (horizontal) and then screw in the rub rail in between the layers, like screwing into wood end grain vs through the layers, the screws won't have much of a good bite long term...they will tend to walk over time.
 

Fishtales

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Hi,

As I recall, GW uses (3) methods to do this. I've toured the factory twice and actually saw them assemble two and three piece boats.

First they use fiberglass roving strips (appeared to be the same used in the layup process) and they are wet, rolled to the hull and sandwiched between the two pieces close to where the blind side fastners are used. There is room for the adhesive.

Second there is an adhesive that is put around the edge where the two pieces meet (just inside the gelcoat) edge of the fiberglass. The pieces are lowered and set into place on the glass and adhesive. When the two pieces are assembled the adhesive actually oozed out of the joints where the two mate and the excess was wiped off. I paid close attention where they did this at the transom, and there were no air bubbles and appeared water tight - couldn't actually confirm.

Finally the fastners that you see are used along with thru bolting of the 2 and 3 pieces where done.

Hope this helps. I have a lot of pics from my last tour. Maybe sometime I'll figure how to get up on the site....
 

BobP

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I never seen any rivets unless at the rub rail joint, everything else is pads of heavy matt resin soaked, placed strategically between stringers/bulheads and liner in very few places. Everything else is glassed, some ss screws at fixed part of deck lip into stingers.
 

lewis_levin

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Fishtales, thanks for the info. I'd love to see the pics.

Others: there is no evidence at all that GW through bolts or uses any backing material. There is no evidence that they glass the joint either inside or outside.

I agree that the self-tapping screws are nearly useless in thin, brittle material like fibreglas. The threads have very little to bite into. Also, any working of the screws will break the hardened resin and fray the glass strands at the edges of the holes.

On quality sailboats, different approaches are used:
1. Both hull and deck have horizontal flanges that are inside the deck perimeter. The flanges are glued with 3M 5200 and bolted on 4", 6", or 8" centers with washers and nylock bolts.
2. Glassing the entire perimeter of the joint both inside and outside with multiple layers of glass cloth. This seals the joint. It is much stronger than adhesive because the load is taken by the cured fibreglas.
3. On horizontal flanges as described in no. 1, an aluminum backing strip is bonded. Holes are drilled through both flanges and the backing strip. The backing trip has threads cut into the holes. Bolts are used to fasten the three layers together.

Nos. 1 and 2 are far superior to 3.

Lower quality sailboats (Catalina, Hunter) use powerboat approaches:
- a shoebox top deck goes over the shoebox hull, bonded with adhesive, and screwed with self-tapping screws. This is inferior to using horizontal flanges because the hull and deck can both move vertically and either the adhesive or the screws are really taking most of the load. With horizontal flanges, the surfaces meet and the glass of the hull sides and the deck take the load and the fasteners keep everything together.

A sailboat hull works because of the many forces on it---especially the rigging loads. A sailboat works partly on its side when heeling in a stiff breeze. Sailboats are expected to sustain conditions that drive most powerboaters to the dock and bar. Also, specific sailboats are meant to operate offshore for days at a time. So, these sailboats use construction methods far superior to most powerboats, including GW.

But, powerboats experience severe pounding when on a plane running in chop more than 2'--over and over for hours at a time. So, I am not implying for a moment that powerboats don't warrant use of the best construction techniques. But, it seems most powerboats operate close to shore and see marinas or calm waters after a few hours of running. Powerboat buyers seem to be not as discriminating as sailboat buyers. Powerboats are sold in MUCH higher volume than sailboats so there is likely more price competition and powerboat mfgrs need to produce the styling and amenities that attract buyers at very attractive prices.

When a planing powerboat is pounding much of the vertical load is taking by the hull sides. If the hull sides are securely attached to the deck, then the overall structure is quite stiff. If the hull sides loosen from the deck (either vertically or horizontally) then there is risk of leaks and the entire boat is structurally much weaker.
 

richie rich

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Lewis, your talking about 2 different boat structures here.....the stress point and glass layup of a planing hull and sailboat are completely different because, as you mention, the stress points are different due to the keel loading of a sailboat vs impact loading of a planing hull. The bond lines though should be similar in nature when it come to bonding hulls, liners and top decks......in either case, the 2 or 3 components are already cured...so where and how they are bonded become similar in nature at that point....anyone who uses layers of matt or roving with PE resin to bond an already cured part is building an inferior joint because matt has no relative strength and woven roving material is 1970's technology that allows excessive resin combined with lower overall directional strength... Biax or Triax fabric is much stronger and is used by many boat builders these days. Regardless of fabric, PE resin is a very poor secondary or mechanical adhesive...thats why most builders use methacrylate for hull bonding rather than wet layers of matt or roving....Fishtales even mentioned that GW used an adhesive to make that bond....if its delaminating, either the prep area was poor or they had contamination which didn't allow for the Meth to bond well.....if they strictly used PE resin and matt...that says it all....its a poor laminate...but it doesn't look that way. Flange design aside, Meth is a very good bonding adhesive....I think it comes down, again, to execution by the boat builder......
 

lewis_levin

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Agree with your comments about secondary bonds. My sailboat is all epoxy and vacuum bagged and uses unidirectional or bias ply cloth throughout--no roving.

For powerboats, it seems that mechanical fasteners with through bolts and some sort of backing strip in addition to washers would be best. I wonder why so few builders do it (cost, cost, cost). In fact, the only place I can see where Grady uses a backing plate and not just washers is for the bow eye. All of the deck cleats and grabrails are through bolted, but with only small washers against the glass.

Still trying to confirm what adhesive Grady would have used in 2005 in order to feel better about their construction.