I'M OUT OF CONTROL--is no bracket the reason?

[hangman1176]

I know this had been brought up a few times but the bracket question has never been really answered with me so here it goes:

I'm in Lake Michigan with tighter/closer wave lengths. I had a '90 25' Sailfish twin 200 yamahas (NO BRACKET) which seemed a little out of control on a forward moving sea. It didn't matter speed or quartering the wave the rear seem to fall and too much speed pushed me to the bottom of the wave hence "out of control". I have 20 years of boating so I'm sure it wasn't all operator error but I could be wrong.

I was wondering if this is the reason for the bracket (stability/planning) Or maybe someone can tell me the real reason for a bracket. I'm looking at buying a 226 or 228.

Thanks Guys----

 

[HDGWJOE]

I never drove a boat with motors on a bracket but I doubt that has anything to do with your problem... but the guys with the brackets will know for sure. You are talking about a following sea... right? If so make sure your tabs are up. If they are down in a following sea you can definitely get pushed around.
A little more info may help... how big are the seas you are talking about and how many seconds between waves(wave period)? Also how fast are you trying to go.

 

[hangman1176]

reply

Yes, trim tabs up, speed is enough to stay ahead of the forward moving wave and enough to keep passing the coming forward waves. Wave heights are around 4-5 foot plus waves with maybe 5-10 second passings.

I know the quotinent for the calculation under "2" is advisable to stay home but I'm speaking a quotient of 3,4,5 here on the Great Lakes.

 

[gradyfish22]

Never ran on the great lakes, so I do not know what the waves out there are like, I've heard they are tight and nasty. As for a bracket, or euro transom over a notched transom, there are some differnces in ride. A bracket and euro transom will place the weight of engines futher aft, which helps to put the center or gravity towards the middle of the boat, which is perferable in most conditions, the further forward, the more your bow will rise and fall with waves and beat you up. Also, bracketed boats do get slightly better speed and fuel efficiency because they are puched further aft off the transom giving them a better flow of water. In some ways a bracket will make the boat act bigger. In all honesty, on a boat that size the difference is not huge, under certain conditions you will notice it, but not all. I agree that the tabs might have had some effect on how your boat performed. If that does not improve things, try shifting the gear onboard more aft and see if that helps or makes it worse. This will give you an idea of what a bracket boat would be like since you can simulate a similar center of gravity, but it will not act totally the same.

As for buying a new boat and choosing between the two types, that depends on your needs and what you are comfortable with. A nothced transom will be better IMHO because you can easily work around the engine. It does cut into some interior space though. If you keep the boat in a slip, you will be charged for about 24'-25' w/o a pulpit depending on who measures. A negative to this type of transom would be the waves you encounter, having the notch can allow waves to crash over the transom and into the well, some water may wash on deck.

A bracket would give you slightly better fuel effciency and speed numbers, I would check Grady's numbers to be exact, but on most boats this is the case. A bracket will also provide you a clsoed transom which will keep water out, but will push the engine further aft, making drift fishing a little more tricky, but still doable. Some bracketed boats feel bigger since the engines do not take up space inside the boat. This comes at a price, add another 2+ft to your slip bill.

You really need to ask yourself what suits your needs and makes you feel comfortable for your uses. The differnce in ride will not be much differnt, after all they are still 22' boats, and have the same hull. The only real way to know would be if you could sea trial each, but I'm not sure if your dealer will arrange that or not. Hopefully some guys on here who fish that area can help you out, but it will be hard to compare unless guys have owned both.

 

[HDGWJOE]

hangman, 5'ers at 10sec shouldn't be a problem, but 5'ers at 5 secs can be constant work in any boat. I think you need to hear from the experts on this site who own your model grady and maybe some with the bracket set up. Your boat/hull sounds like a very close configuration to the 265 Express... only that boat is a foot shorter. I have not heard of any out of the ordinary issues with the handling of that boat.

 

[gradyfish22]

Closest I've been to that on my 265 was 6ft seas w/ a few 7's with 7s intervals, we ran 60 miles through that before it calmed and we could fly the remaining 15miles. We did have to adjust the speed every once in a while, but running 14kts we were very comfortable. I even had someone sleep on that ride...not sure how!! The boat never felt out of control, took a little playing with the tabs and engine trim to get the boat running comfortable and we were in business.

 

[HDGWJOE]

took a little playing with the tabs and engine trim to get the boat running comfortable and we were in business.

that's the key... every boat is different and will have its own "groove" for each set of conditions... even within the same same model group especially after the owner loads the boat up with gear, supplies etc.

 

[Grog]

Following seas can be tricky, too much speed and you can plow into the next wave and too little and you get swamped. Did you sell the Sailfish? Mine has a bracket, and while the extra length isn't going to hurt it's probably not that much different. I can see the boat wallowing in the right conditions you need to stay on top of it, but it will still handle better than the 226 or 228. The Grady brackets do not add lift only more engine setback.

It's hard to call what the marine will charge for each boat. Some charge x dollar amount for x slip no matter what's in it. I'm paying for a 26' boat but the overall length is MUCH longer with the bracket and pulpit. I've heard of some measuring the boat while on land with the engines up.

 

[HDGWJOE]

It's hard to call what the marine will charge for each boat. Some charge x dollar amount for x slip no matter what's in it. I'm paying for a 26' boat but the overall length is MUCH longer with the bracket and pulpit. I've heard of some measuring the boat while on land with the engines up.

You've got that right... my boat is 30' and I pay for 34... that is the measurement with engines down & includes the pulpit. I'm just glad my marina isn't one of the marina's that measures with engines up and I know there are some in our area that do.

 

[BobP]

In tall following seas you can pitchpole the boat if control is lost, that's easy with the big waves coming from behind, you act more like a surfboard than a boat. No power when props cavitate.

Never use tabs in following seas since tabs only add more bow down action, unless you want to be like a submarine and go under - then wear scuba gear and be sure insurance is up to date!

If the seas were following but not tall you can outrun them readily.


Every skipper has to know the limitations of his boat and skills.

 

[hangman1176]

Bob-

You summed it up.......I guess I came to the equation my ability an the boats ability however I always wondered if a bracket would help by keeping the weight more centered. Does that make sence? Just curious for my next boat.

 

[Sailfish25]

Hangman, I've owned my 90 Sailfish with transom mounted 200's for about 7 years now. I have found the boat does not track straight in any sea with a chop over 2 ft. I attribute that to the fact that it doesn't have the SeaV2 hull design. The bottom of the boat is almost flat at the transom.
When I first bought the boat the previous owner worked on the steering cylinder and had messed with adjusting the two motors. When he was done they were not running parallel to each other and I guess he didn't know this. There was a 5 inch alignment difference between the front of each lower unit and the rear. You couldn't go over 3600 rpm because the it was totally out of steering control. I mention this just because once I aligned the motors, it made a hugh difference.

 

[gw204]

You've already stated that your tabs are up, so that's good. My questions are 1) how do you have the engines themselves trimmed? and 2) what props are you running?

 

[BobP]

Regardless if it's a bracket boat or not, like Brian suggested, if you want to pull up the bow you have to drive the stern down by using engine trim - trim up.

In those following seas you may tend to trim easy since more trim up will cause more events of cavitation when the wave rides under the stern if you are going slower than the water. Anyway, don't trim the boat down, nor trim the engines down, since if you have to power out of a nasty moment, you want to be able to hammer it instantaneously to get out of trouble.

If you are going faster than the following seas and flying over and coming down hard, that's the way it is - nothing you can do about it, cabin boats have heavy front ends relative to the rear halfs, and much more so than CCs. Keeping the fuel load high will help offset this characteristic.

The bracket boats are cost effective ways to gain more length in usable space by extending the boat by a few feet and adding a second transom, so to speak. There is a huge amount of room in the transom service area of my model vs. the engines on transon model, that's why there were very few sold relative to bracket boats. The advantage of engines on transom is the closest to ideal one can get a fishable stern with outboards, and less bobbing in handling at speed. Some say the bracket boats are safer than the other from swamping, I don't agree.

 

[Amigo]

Here are a couple of comments from a Lake Michigan boater with a 25' 1988 Sailfish I/O.

I also have an 18 footer with an outboard on a stearn bracket. Pushing the motor further back does give the motor more leverage over the boat. It could be of some help with steering but I think it would be minor. It does give advantage in getting a boat up on plane.

A following sea on Lake Michigan never gives you a rest because of the wave frequency. I'm on the East side of the Lake and with a prevailing wind from the west many trips into port are with following seas.

When on plane, with a big following sea, standard procedure is tabs up, enough trim to keep the bow up and enough throttle, but not to much, to push through the next wave. Where the fun starts is when you come off plane near the pier heads. That's when you have to stay alert.

Once off plane I extend the tabs back down. This helps to keep the boat from wandering. This is a characteristic of I/O boats for some reason. It appears that a little drag back there created by the tabs keeps the bow from wandering.

 

[BobP]

Sailfish 25

I don't think the later SV2 hull has anything to do with the shape of the keel, it is also rounded on mine. If that's what you are referring to.

Also, twin engines on transom require some toe in, twin engines on bracket require some toe out.

If anyone wants the DIY toe procedure I came up with, I can provide it.
The dealer used a special tool for this, I got around it.