Need Help!

[83Trophy]

To make a very long story short in the beginning of the season I had to pump 60 gallons of gas from my 150 gallon tank that I would say was about 20% water. The gas looked like Snapple Iced Tea! (the boat was shrink-wrapped nice and tight for the winter, gas treated, etc.).

After the tank was bone dry, I changed the water separators, rebuilt all 6 carb's, fresh treated fuel- running great! Yet, I don't know how the water got in?

I went to go out on Wednesday night and made it about 1000 feet from the dock and both motors died, within 30 seconds of each other. I have about 50 gallons of 89 octane on-board, (which was treated with sta-bil), that was purchased from the same marina (high traffic, should be good gas).

Today I went and pulled the water separators, and the picture below shows what I took out. (Note- the tank was purchased 5 years ago, but as a leftover direct from Grady)

So I pulled the center hatch exposing the tank, wiped it down, and found nothing. I checked the vents- both facing down. I checked the seal on the gas cap- seems fine. There is no gas leaking into the bilge- nothing smells of gas. I checked the tank sides for holes- nothing the eye could see. The only thing I found is that I have one screw missing from my sending unit. But the top of the tank is dry!

I am going to pump what I can from the tank bottom to see what comes out...but without pulling the tank - I am at a complete loss. I have heard horror stories about ethanol, but this seems a bit ridiculous!

I must be missing something - any thoughts or suggestions is GREATLY appreciated!

Thanks...Bob

 

[deucesuser]

Aluminum tank or poly. ?
If aluminum I'd say maybe condensation. Wrap the tank in insulation.
If poly I am at a loss also. Could be condensation but obviously metal condenses water easier.

 

[83Trophy]

The tank is aluminum.

I have run the boat with this setup for 4 seasons now and never had a problem like this.

I could understand condensation...but gallons of it???

 

[seasick]

its not condensation.
What am I looking at in the bottle. Water would be on the bottom. If you drain from the bottom (and that's hard to do unless you open the sender hole and pump out, you would see mostly water.
It is important to know if the boat ran OK earlier or if this was the first trip after draining the tank.How did you "drain the tank dry"?
So, two things to do. Inquire at the marine to see if anyone else had issues, that would be my first guess, more bad fuel. I would also ask myself if I had a 'friend' who might pump water into my tank. Did you happen to notice if your fuel level reading was higher than you left it last time?
Of course if it rained like heck between last fill and the problem, you still could have a water intrusion problem.

 

[JeffN]

I would agree with seasick as to various causes. How is your fuel fill cap, was that recently replaced? It does appear to be too much water for it to be condesation in that short amount of time.

Do you have two tanks on your boat? If so is the rear tank causing you trouble too?

 

[deucesuser]

Have you considered that someone put it there.
May sound silly but I'm in the auto repair business and I see stuff every now and again.
Sometimes when there is not a logical answer I have to consider things
like that.
Just a thought.

 

[83Trophy]

Thanks for the input guys. To answer the questions/comments:

I have been getting gas for 20 years from the same marina- as has all of my friends; and we have never had a problem. So I don't think it's that.

If I didn't have the problem in the beginning of the year I would consider someone tainting the tank with water, but unlikely.

I only have a single 150 gallon tank in the boat, so I cannot try a reserve tank (without rigging an external portable tank).

I have not seen a noticeable rise in the fuel gauge from the last time I went out to now. I cannot remember at the beginning of the season though. (Note- I still have the gas/water mix that I pumped in April in an external tank on the side of my house. I would approximate out of 50 or so gallons...30% is water.)

I have an electric Holley fuel pump that I use to transfer gas, in such situations. I can get right to the bottom of the tank with the hose attached to a very long and thin screwdriver and pump it dry (through the sending unit hole).

After I did this in the beginning of the season the boat ran great, up until this past Wednesday.

It has been a very, very dry summer here up until last weekend. Last Sunday we had over 5 inches of rain! And now that I think about it, after I uncovered the boat in March to get her water ready, we had an obscene amount of rain for like 2 weeks. Common denominator - rain!

I checked the gas cap yesterday and it was tight, but that would be the logical explanation. I am going to pull the fuel fill hose off the tank and run hose over the gas cap to see what happens. I cannot think of anywhere else water could be getting in!

Not really ever experiencing this in 20+ years of boating- would that amount of water cause the gas to turn that cloudy , iced tea color???

Thanks again for all your input...Bob

 

[Curmudgeon]

If your old fuel is 30% water, I think you've found what and now you just have to find how - and it ain't condensation. How old is your Stabil? I've had a couple of mechanics tell me old stuff has a tendency to glob rather than mix ... :uhm

 

[Doc Stressor]

It could be phase separation started by condensation from not keeping your tank full. All you need is ~.5% water and you end up with a 10% bottom layer containing the water and most of the ethanol.

It's hard to figure out what you picture is showing. With phase separation, the water/ethanol should be below the gasoline layer.

StaBil doesn't prevent phase separation. It just slows oxidation of your fuel.

 

[83Trophy]

I have never treated any gas during the season and never had any problems until now. The Stabil that I used was purchased new all throughout the season. I have run thus far about 120 gallons through the motors, but the majority of my boating is in the fall.

My estimate of 30% water to gas may be off, but it is pretty bad.

I would say that I have a tendency to keep the gas tank half full...so that leaves a space large enough for 75 gallons.

This afternoon I checked the gas cap for leakage and unfortunately it is sealed tight.

Doc- the picture is showing what settled out from the separators. The bottom is clear and the thin layer on top is a cloudy substance. When it is shaken it is a scary sight- just a cloud of sh*t. Doesn't even smell like gas.

I didn't have time to pump the tank as planned, but will get to it this week.

Is there anyway to prevent the phase separation you described? And why doesn't this happen to every other boat that sits for long periods of time; because they keep the tanks topped off???

This is very frustrating!

Thanks...Bob

 

[richie rich]

Could you have, by accident, added a small amount of diesel fuel instead of gas? Maybe from a container....People have done that before..

 

[83Trophy]

RR- I wish it was something like that...but no. It was all fresh fuel.


Would tank rusting speed up the phase separation process???

 

[richie rich]

Aluminum tanks won't rust but they can oxidize to a white powdery coating.....The muck you show in the picture looks like old, dirty gas....I have gas in a 5 gallon container from last year that I use around the yard...and maybe it's "stale"....but its still clear as day.....thats just contamination.....you may have gotten the bottom of the barrel from your marina...those tanks have been there for years....and they're not imune from issues either..........I would drain the tank, clean the crap out of it and start anew.

 

[BobP]

Unscrew the gas tank caps and inspect the O ring. Does it exist? If so, remove it and clean the O ring groove on both sides; cap and mating fitting. You should replace O rings every three years or so.

The tank vent in the side of the hull should have a loop in the hose, find it and check how the hose attaches. It should go higher then come down to the fitting. Make sure fitting is rotated to the right position.

Is your tank relatively new?
If not, the tank may have holes on the top and water passing the deck plates goes right in Another source of water penetration is the fuel level sender gasket, mine were leaking.

In the worst case with an older tank and boat, the entire compartment may be not thru - draining from bow to stern and holes further up the side of tank may be allowing the water to enter tank.

You may be better off getting a portable poly 24 gallon deck tank and use 6 gallon poly cans in addition to get thru the summer, then pull tank and take care of it, if not the O ring and vents.

You'd be surpised of some photos shown here and at THT showing gas tank holess and the owner never knew.

Gas/water seperators don't seperate water in ethanol. You have ethanol on Long Island. The water is absorbed into the alcohol and burned along with the real real gas, nothing wrong with that. You may be too young to recall what dry gas is, and when we all used it in our cars. Alcohol and gas mix, water and non-ethanol gas does not. Add dry gas (alcohol) and it scrubs the water into the fuel and burns it alcolhol and all. Too much water in ethanol and the 10% alcohol seperates from the real gas along with the water and that's what goes to the bottm since it is has more mass, the rest of the gas is corrosive and good for nothing. Olters have shonw phtos where the darker stuff is on the bottom. I advise others to check clear bowl separators for color only.

You may be better off getting a portable poly 24 gallon deck tank and use 6 gallon poly cans in addition to get thru the summer, then pull tank and take care of it, if not the O ring and vents.

 

[83Trophy]

Again- thanks for the input guys- greatly appreciated.

BobP- I will check everything you mentioned. I do know that I am missing one of the screws on the fuel sending unit. But the rubber gasket is covering the majority of the hole. I guess every little bit counts.

I am 36 and do not remember having to put drygas in auto fuel tanks. But I did speak with a few other people and it seems I am not the only one who is having this problem. A guy at work with a 37' Silverton had the same problem this year he said.

Tomorrow I plan on pumping what I can from the tank bottom. I will keep you posted.

Thanks again...Bob

 

[gw204]

That picture you posted looks more like water floating on top of gasonline than the other way around.

Here's what I pumped out of my Formula's old tank. Once it settled out, it looked just like your picture, only upside down.

Maybe someone at the marine is stealing gas from your boat and replacing it w/ water so the fuel level gauge doesn't clue you in on the missing fuel?

 

[BobP]

The top of the tank is not crowned, water sits on top of tank and collects, water goes right into fuel sender cutout. Pull the senders and regasket or recaulk. MAke sure you caukt under screw head or add small gaskets under screw head.

When you pull senders, look straight down into bottom with LED flashlite from above - if you see a stain on bottom of tank, there it is.

Well at least one.
Been there, done that. And mine had all the screws.

What you are having is not likely condensation, the off season (storage season) is relatively dry in humidity on Long Island. Only when you place a cold can of beer or soda out, and it makes a flood, is when you need to be concerned. Or when you go to the boat early morning in storage and it is soaking wet like it rained but didn't. The advise is either to totally drain tanks or fill them, no inbetween. Totally drained means use a syringe or hand pump via sender opening.
During season better off full than near lower.

 

[BobP]

Brian, is that ethanol fuel or non-ethanol.

The heavier mass is always going to bottom, Water even if emulsified is heavier.
Perhaps the old fuel is disintegrating into varnish and all the other goodies.

At least it's liquid you got out!

 

[richie rich]

Brians is definitely water...the stuff floating in the Trophy tank is just sludge from years of accumulation..a little bit of everything....I still say it may have come from the marina fuel tank...for someone having no problems to all of a sudden you got that much in there???

 

[Grog]

It's way too much water for condensation and if you talked to others and they didn't have a gas/water problem it's probably OK too. I'm thinking it's getting in through the missing screw. If the o-ring is bad around the knock-out, water will get in and sit on top of the tank by the sender. Bad hoses or holes in the tank will let gas out not water in.