Replacing 1983 Seafarer floor/gas tank

[mac83]

Looks like I will be replacing the floor in my (new to me) Seafarer soon. I purchased this boat as a project. So the fun begins. I'm going to get outside today and do some cleaning and get some good pictures to post so everyone can track my progress....including myself. Both center pieces as soft so they will definatly need to be replaced. I will also be putting a new gas tank in the boat since it's only 28 years old. The floor just beside the two center pieces have a little flex in the also. Do you think I would just be better off doing the whole floor. If so, when I cut the floor out should I leave at last 6/8 inces on the outside of the cut so that when I glass the floor back in, I will be able to keep the strength of the hull? What are the methods that others have done when repalcing your GW floors. Thanks everyone for your help. -Mike

 

[richie rich]

If you can post some pics on what you're trying to accomplish, it would help.....re-coring a tank hatch is one thing, cutting the deck itself is much more involved.

 

[mac83]

 

[richie rich]

I can tell you right now, if you start cutting, you will open up a can of worms....what is your intention with this boat? short term ie less than 5 years or long term? Short term, I'd do the tanks, bulkheads and tank covers....stuff that is easily accessible and replaceable.....if you cut the surrounding deck, you will be doing a complete rebuild....you will see dark spots of rot in the stringers....you will find water in the foam....you will probably replace the transom....and you may even go up into the cabin area as well.....if you're game it can be rebuilt solid as a rock....but it means alot of demo, prep grinding and then reglassing.....

 

[NOTHING ELSE MATTERS]

With a little elbow grease ( a lot actually), aprox. 6-8 thousand and a very, VERY open mind and set to do this, you can have this boat done much better than brand new, assuming you can do the work your self. Is like what Richie said, if you planning on keeping the boat for a long time(more than 5-6), will be worth every penny you spend on her. Good luck.
P.S, the Formula i am restoring now was MUCH, MUCH worst than yours.

 

[mac83]

I'm planning on keeping this boat. I reaaly like the layout and size. When I cut the deck, should I plan on using the top shell once I replace the wood?

 

[gw204]

From the looks of those pics, you have a lot of other issues to address before you start worrying about the floor and gas tanks. Your stringer and bulkheads are toast.

 

[BobP]

NEM, if he does it himself, no $6-8K.

Stringer / bulhead work is typically 90% labor in total cost of project, when using marine plywood and general purpose epoxy resins sold by the multi gallon jugs, and I don't mean West. He may need 20 gals of resin on this job if the rot goes up forward into cabin structure. Can use a BC grade on the floor covers to cut costs, but stay marine plywood on structure for costs control.

Good DIYer project if one has the time.

I bet gas tanks are good though, perhaps transom too !

 

[BobP]

What's behind the stringers to the port and starboard under the fixed floor may be fine, as the fixed floor is sealed, unlike deck covers that have screws directly into stringers and bulkheads, exactly where water gets into covers and stringeres/bulkheads.

So he heeds to do main stringers seen in photos and bulkheads between stringers, and call it a day, unless transom is shot too, and what's forward in cabin, somewhere it will usually end going forward.

There is another stringer outboard of the mains, but I'd leave them as they may be good enough and much smaller in height and the heavy full faced fab mat glass Grday used is beneficial just like it is keeping the floor up that he stands on, not the wood.

I bet the foam out there is fine too, so project 1 is above.

Project 2 (another year) if the fixed floor is soft outboard of the mains, is to make the cut to get it out in one piece then build a perimeter of splice plates, recore removed fixed floor and back in it goes. Recore deck covers.

So for now, no reason to cut the fixed floor. The main stringer skin on the backside can stay and he bonds new wood to existing skin by applying a force from the other side (doing one stringer or bulkhead at a time and boat fully blocked), then add new skin on inboard side (gas tank side). Carboard template out the wood needed, 3 tabs of 1708, and one full faced up to top over the 3. If there is a 1/2 inch ply flat floor under gas tank, replace it too. Raka for supplies, 1708, and 15 gallon slow kit (to start).

If gas tank did not leak, pull sender and visually inspect inside, clean and evaluate, if no excessive corrosion, back it goes with new fill and feed lines.

I'm ready to do this job!

When do we start?

 

[NOTHING ELSE MATTERS]

Yeah Bob, when i said 6-8 i was allowing for new tank, for sure new wiring and some extras that don't come up before the surgery. I am way below that my self on the Formula, but i see it adding up very fast.

 

[richie rich]

What's behind the stringers to the port and starboard under the fixed floor may be fine, as the fixed floor is sealed, unlike deck covers that have screws directly into stringers and bulkheads, exactly where water gets into covers and stringeres/bulkheads.

So he heeds to do main stringers seen in photos and bulkheads between stringers, and call it a day, unless transom is shot too, and what's forward in cabin, somewhere it will usually end going forward.

There is another stringer outboard of the mains, but I'd leave them as they may be good enough and much smaller in height and the heavy full faced fab mat glass Grday used is beneficial just like it is keeping the floor up that he stands on, not the wood.

I bet the foam out there is fine too, so project 1 is above.

Project 2 (another year) if the fixed floor is soft outboard of the mains, is to make the cut to get it out in one piece then build a perimeter of splice plates, recore removed fixed floor and back in it goes. Recore deck covers.

So for now, no reason to cut the fixed floor. The main stringer skin on the backside can stay and he bonds new wood to existing skin by applying a force from the other side (doing one stringer or bulkhead at a time and boat fully blocked), then add new skin on inboard side (gas tank side). Carboard template out the wood needed, 3 tabs of 1708, and one full faced up to top over the 3. If there is a 1/2 inch ply flat floor under gas tank, replace it too. Raka for supplies, 1708, and 15 gallon slow kit (to start).

If gas tank did not leak, pull sender and visually inspect inside, clean and evaluate, if no excessive corrosion, back it goes with new fill and feed lines.

I'm ready to do this job!

When do we start?

Well, this is where the "can of worms" can come into play....I started EXACTLY the same way....just the tanks....then just the bulkheads.....then just the inside stringers because I saw the same rot as in the picture....then I saw the foam and it was wet....then I saw the 2nd stringers.....then the buckle of glass off the bottom of the transom due to freeze/thaw so the transom is out.....then the front bulkhead.....then the deck while I'm at it because I need access to both sides od the stringers for glassing....then the stringers and balsa core bottom under the helm up to the V-Berth......be prepared for all of this...and if you find less damage, feel lucky.......

To do the whole thing you'll need all of that 15 gallons of epoxy and you want something decent that does not blush...Marine epoxy is a good 2:1 value epoxy for $750 a kit from Boat Builder Central......then 50 to 75 yards of 50 inch wide 17oz glass at $12/yard so thats 500-900 or so....plus 2 rolls of 6 inch tabbing tape.....plus around 10 total sheets of plywood (for the whole job) at $75 for regular marine ply to $120 for Meranti if you want the good stuff...so you're geting close to another $1000.....new fuel fill lines, fuel hoses, bilge pumps cause they're old, bilge hoses, thru-hulls, seacock, clamps, all cause they're old and should be replaced...thats $500-$750 (I just bought all these this weekend), touch up paint $50, 4-6 gallons of floatation foam $350, Wire and miscellaneous supplies, gloves, masks, brushes, trays, solvent, grinding discs, Tyvek suits, etc..$200....your close to or just over $4000....if the tank is bad add another $750-1000 if its epoxy coated so now the project is $5000....roughly......NEM is not that far off.......I would budget for that being the worse case scenario and see how it goes....

Its always going to cost more than you think and take at least twice as long as you think as well......

 

[mac83]

So, I've been back at it a little bit. I've got the gas tank out and staring to get all of the rotten wood out. Looks like I'll be doing main stringers and bulkheads right now. I'll update some pictures this weekend. What type of glass should I get when glassing in the stringers? I'm new to fiberglass so I want to make sure I get the right thing. I think I'm going to glass all the up the stringers this time, not just half way like it came from the factory. Thanks everyone.

 

[BobP]

Richie, about 9 bucks per yard for 1708 from RAKA and he has 15 gallon kits of general purpose 127 epoxy very reasonable.

I'm not seeing that many sheets of plywood unless transom too, marine ply way more expensive than 75 bucks at $110 or more for 3/4 inch, 4x8 ft sheets
I'd do the deck covers with one piece B/C out of the box store.
He can check the transom with a dozen 1/8 inch pilot holes across area, easy enough to do. Feel for wetness in wood drillings, or WORSE.

The floatation is easy enough to check before cutting up both sides of the fixed floor, he just needs to bore small hole in fixed deck near rear on both sides and sink a brake tube straight down thru foam to bottom of hull and cover tight with finger and pull it up fast, if little or no water comes out, only the bottom of foam is wet, doesn't amount to anything worth while to do now. Can also suck on the tube to pull water up. If it's good, pushing out the foam plug stuck in the tube will reveal it.

If the foam is very bad the bottom thickness will be solid water similar to a sponge, that's whne the weight adds up.

 

[BobP]

With respect to the OP's question, tab with no less than 3 layers of 1708, take a 4th down from the top overlapping the 3 tabs. I'd tab at 4.5, 5.5, and 6.5 inches each way, smaller one down first.

I like to cut my own tabs and just buy 50 inch 1708, others buy the cloth in strips.

I order 50 inch in 12 yards the most, otherwise it's hernia time picking it up from UPS man at door.

If you tab the entire height the same, that's a lot of weight with heavier epoxy reason, which is heavier than polyester or the others. A lot more resin and cloth too. No reason for it. The cloth at 3 x 1708 takes a tremedous amount of resin, you will see.

The glass up high is just needed to seal the plyface to keep it from checking and exposing itself, the wood is way strong enough w/o glass, tabs are needed to unify grid struture to hull.

The statement was made earlier about how long the work takes, and the estimate was twice as long, I'd say figure 3-4 times as long since you are new to it.

I do all my 1708 wetouts on the table on 4 mil clear plastic, saves tremendous amount of time (gravity hels to wet glass faster on flat surface). Roll it up into platic paint tray and into boat it goes.

I'd also say block the boat heavily along keel line and along entire perimeter to keep the hull from distorting when pulling out wood structure, and do only one stringer or bulkhead at a time. So if you take out the port main stringer, replace it totally, than do the starboard main, etc.
If you find grady spliced a stringer with a splice plate, you can do the same, fill the gap with thickened resin and use stainless screws not the staples grady used. Get the big bags of silica too, it goes fast. Raka has big bags very reasonable.

 

[richie rich]

$9 per yard delivered? Well, I guess....the couple of bucks difference isn't that much...its the total cost if he needs to do EVERYTHING.....again, the can of worms scenario.....I'm also not a big fan of "General Purpose" resin unless its got a brand name associated with it or a long history.....you will never know how well it will hold and bond until you're all done and putting it to the test later on....then, its too late...Just my opinion....haven't worked with it so i can't really say either way in regards to its quality. It may be fine.

Anyway, Mac, you'll need some strips or "tape" as they call it......you can do as Bob said and cut your own or just buy some 12 oz biax 6 inch wide tape for tabbing everything.....3 layers as suggested is sound advice......... and you'll need 1708 (with CSM) or LT1700 (no CSM) for the main glassing.....the 1708 builds quickly but uses more resin and takes longer to wet out...the plus is you'll use less layers......the LT1700 is just the 45/45 stiched glass...NO chopped matt attached.....easier to wet out, uses less resin, but requires an extra layer or 2 to get to the same build thickness...but that will result in a higher glass to resin content which is stronger......both will work fine.....I wouldn't go higher in glass weight just because its harder to handle, bend around corners, and wet out.

 

[mac83]

Worked on getting all the rot out of the port side stringer. The whole this is shot. Was very slow and took about 4.5 hours for me to get most of the wood out. Looks like my next step is to make sure I get all the wood out. Should I sand the remaining ply out? I also included a photo or what looks like to be a washdown on the port side near the transome... Can anyone shed some light on these fitting for me? Thanks.

http://images3a.snapfish.com/232323232% ... 4%3Anu0mrj
I'll be redoing the rear bulkhead here...Does anyone know if this bulkhead goes all the way across the entire boat?

Should I keep the tabs in tack or just plan on reglassing this in w/ 1708?

Got most of the wood out.

Can someone help me with what I'm looking at?

Thanks all I've got for this weekend...will be back at it next weekend.

 

[richie rich]

Not sure how you plan on digging the rot out without completely cutting all the wood out. Forget digging rot from in between the glass and leaving any original tabbing..you will waste a lot of time doing that....you have to cut the glass flush to the hull with a sawzall, then using a disc grinder with a flapper wheel, grind down to clean glass......you will need at least 6 inches and up to 12 inches of clean ground/sanded glass to bond the new wood and glass tabbing to. The picture shows a very wet and dark stringer....not sure how you plan on bonding to that or do you plan to replace it? This will expose the foam under the deck and then your next stringer. That bulkhead goes to the next stringer and should end there......so you should have 4 parallel stringers and bulkheads in between....it should not go to the gunwale. Grady White should have a schematic of the grid section they can give you....give them a call or email. As far as the washdown? I have never seen that configuration with those elbows.....my sailfish has the spigot just like yours, but it comes from a Y valve which is fed from the raw water washdown pump and thru hull fitting in the bilge center next to the transom....all connected via hoses.

 

[mac83]

As far as the rear bulkhead being rotted...how would one advise to tackle this? Do I gut the floor to get to the rear bulkhead and then I will be able to inspect the outermost stringer also -or- do I go at it from the back of the boat...do something similar to what it looks like when you replace the transom? Thanks.

 

[richie rich]

As far as the rear bulkhead being rotted...how would one advise to tackle this? Do I gut the floor to get to the rear bulkhead and then I will be able to inspect the outermost stringer also -or- do I go at it from the back of the boat...do something similar to what it looks like when you replace the transom? Thanks.

This is the 64,000 dollar question....how far do you want to take this? If you keep digging you may end up replacing the entire grid....are you prepared to take this kind of project on?

You have already removed 75% of that rear bulkhead...thats the part that goes between the 2 inner stringers and fuel tanks. The rest of the bulkhead is a small wedge about 15 inches wide that goes in between the two stringers on each side..it is glassed on both sides and foamed in......from the outer most stringer and the gunwale there is no bulkhead. So the choice becomes if you want to get at the 2 remaining pieces, then you have to gut the inside stringers completely to get to them. If not, leave it and all the foam inside there alone. If your decks are solid then you're good.....if they're soft, then the whole enchalada has to come off anyway and you're doing a complete rebuild.

I can't tell from the pictures what you removed in the stringer area.....did you remove just the exposed glass? The exposed glass and the wood itself? Is just whats left the inner glass skin up against the foam? It looks like the innermost/exposed skin is still there and you chuncked out the wood? I would cut that remaining skin flush to the hull if thats the case.....I can see that the bulkhead is gone completely....cut and grind that glass flush to the hull going at least 6+ inches in all directions to bond new glass to.

 

[Grog]

It looks pretty ugly. If you're willing to do the work yourself (it's going to be a learning experience) and like the boat go ahead. The boat isn't worth paying someone to do the work. You're going to be cutting up the deck and inside the cabin to get to the main stringers and digging out a lot of foam. With fiberglass if you screw up, grind it out and start over so learning isn't that bad (just time and $).