Sea Star Steering Troubleshooting

[kirk a]

There is a sea star hydraulic system on my 330 Express. Last year the steering wheel felt jumpy/sticky as it turned. Spent a while bleeding the system per Sea Star's web site. Pretty confident in that process, as I'd previously done it with a prior boat. The symptom returned after a couple trips. I need to sort this out. It is obvious there is a leak, or air is getting in, as the level at the helm is low.

I've not noticed any fluid leaks at the transom on either motor bracket. There is no visible leak at the helm. My next steps are to access behind and under the helm to ascertain if there is a visible leak there. From looking at the diagrams on the Sea Star site, it appears there may be splits in the line somewhere between the helm and transom to access both motors. Any idea where this might be located on the 330, I'm going on the theory that the most likely spot for leaks are at those joints, or the connections under the helm, either to the wheel, or to the autopilot bit.

Anything else I should look at? Also, is there any more involved process for bleeding when an autopilot is involved?

 

[Hookup1]

The bumpy feeling happens when the fluid is low and valves in the helm station get confused. Look at all your connection and seals. I wrap all of them in a paper towel, tape them on, fill it back up and take it for a run.

I have a easy one-person bleed process I'll send over later. If the fluid is low you need to find the leak before worrying about a perfect bleed.

 

[mleads310]

Mind posting the easy 1 man bleed process?

 

[Hookup1]

Check out this thread.

Hydraulic steering problem

I have a 22' GW with 250 Yamaha 4 stroke. The boat veers to port side, I continually need to steer to starboard to compensate. I have disassembled the helm and everything seems to be moving freely and re-bled the system, doing same thing. Also, I find that when I tilt the motor up and leave it...

www.greatgrady.com

You don't need the $20 hydraulic quick connects (eBay) to bypass the cylinder. I just used clear vinyl tubing. Also install new o-rings on the bleeders before you start.

 

[Fishtales]

One area to check are the (4) black plastic lines that run thru the bulkhead to the seastar pistons on the outboards. Where they connect to the outboards there is a plastic sleeve that pops over the nut that holds the cable to the piston and then protects the cable at the bend radius. I had chaffing there that eventually caused the line to blow. I replaced the one that blew and it's pair that year and the other two the following for good measure. All the lines from the connection inside the boat (after bulkhead) are metal. They run from that connection to the pump and then from pump to the wheel. As you say, there must be a leak somewhere.

 

[seasick]

If the fill port runs dry at any time during the bleeding, the pump will suck air. The only way to have a decent shot at not sucking air is to have a container hanging upside down while connected to the fill port with the proper screw connector. Of course the container has to be open on the top which is actually the bottom so that fluid will flow. If you didn't have sucj a refill arrangement, you need to bleed again.
You may also have dirty check valves but that wouldn't explain the lower fluid levels.

 

[Hookup1]

The Seastar fluid bottle has to be hung like an IV with clear tubing to the fill port at the helm. Pin hole in bottom of container to let air in. Make sure you always have fluid in tubing. If not stop and change container/refill.

The bypass of cylinder works great. With bleed ports open you can turn steering wheel both ways and the air will come up to the fill container. The tricky part is to get the air out of the cylinder. You do this by pushing the motor over by hand to empty one side, close the bleed and turn the wheel to fill one side and empty the other. Close the other bleeder and turn the wheel the other way and close the bleeder. Turn wheel stop to stop several times. This will clear any air in cylinder. Then open both bleed valves and purge lines if air. Close bleed valves and retest.

 

[Parthery]

I had a similar issue after I replaced the caps on my ram. Air was getting in and displacing the fluid which was coming out from the helm cap and ending up on the deck.

Turned out the O-rings on the bleeders needed to be replaced. Once they were replaced, and the system bled again, it was good-to-go.

 

[kirk a]

One thing that is puzzling me is if air is getting in and displacing fluid, would I not see evidence of leaks somewhere? I found the splitters in the lines under the transom, both were dry as bone with no evidence of fluid. Connections on motor same thing. Still need to go behind the helm to investigate there.

After bleeding last year, the steering felt great for a couple of trips, but on return from an overnight offshore the autopilot again was searching and the wheel felt sticky/jumpy as described in original post.

 

[Hookup1]

It's going somewhere. Use the paper towels taped to each possible leak. The seal on the helm pump is notorious for leaking.

 

[Willy-C]

The OEM Seastar fluid is clear so finding a leak can be a PITA. You can use 5606 Aviation fluid that has a red dye or buy some blue fluid from a local auto parts store. Both of these fluids are of the same consistency of Seastar fluid but both have dyes.

 

[kirk a]

Closing loop. Did a good detailing of the motor well area, and found yellow fluid consistent with the Sea Star fluid. Further investigation showed that both cylinders were leaking at seals. Purchased a pair of kits, one with a wrench and one without. Only real issue was that the wrench was too long to actually turn the seals, but a trip to local hardware store for a hacksaw solved that issue, and now the boat toolkit has a hacksaw. (Naturally, have 3 or 4 an hour away at home) Once the wrench was shortened, the seals came off with minimal effort, as did the arms to the cylinder. With all that I read, I was pleasantly surprised at the relative ease of removal.

Replacement for both motors still took a few hours, but next time will be significantly less time. Bled system and took boat for a ride. Still have a bit of jumpy-ness while turning in one direction - my guess is the helm unit itself needs some R&R. I'm planning to take the old end caps to a hydraulic shop, as it may be possible to have them install new o rings based on other posts I've read.

I will likely add the helm unit to the winter list of things to address.

 

[wspitler]

Make sure to check the autopilot pump area. If you are losing a significant amount of fluid, and it sounds like you are, that is an easy place to look. On my 330 they put the pump behind the AC/DC panel in the cabin. Turn off all power, take out the 6-8 screws and take a look, unless your pump is in a different location. You can also see the back of the helm pump from there I believe.

 

[kirk a]

Thanks Bill. I've gone behind the helm via that panel, and did not notice obvious signs of leaking. That said, one can always look harder. And yes, I can see the back of the helm from there, but my arms are simply not long enough to do anything about it - seems to me the way in would be to remove the electronics insert from above.

One question that has been nagging me - are there any additional steps in bleeding needed when an autopilot is connected to system? I've never seen it called out, so assume not, but since there is an additional "circuit" for the hydraulic fluid it would make sense.

 

[wspitler]

Thanks Bill. I've gone behind the helm via that panel, and did not notice obvious signs of leaking. That said, one can always look harder. And yes, I can see the back of the helm from there, but my arms are simply not long enough to do anything about it - seems to me the way in would be to remove the electronics insert from above.

One question that has been nagging me - are there any additional steps in bleeding needed when an autopilot is connected to system? I've never seen it called out, so assume not, but since there is an additional "circuit" for the hydraulic fluid it would make sense.

Did you locate and inspect the autopilot pump? Use the autopilot to run the engines left and right to get any air down to the cylinders while bleeding the system. If you are losing fluid that should be your primary goal to find the leak. Bleeding a leaking system is a very short term fix.

 

[Vronsky]

The Seastar fluid bottle has to be hung like an IV with clear tubing to the fill port at the helm. Pin hole in bottom of container to let air in. Make sure you always have fluid in tubing. If not stop and change container/refill.

The bypass of cylinder works great. With bleed ports open you can turn steering wheel both ways and the air will come up to the fill container. The tricky part is to get the air out of the cylinder. You do this by pushing the motor over by hand to empty one side, close the bleed and turn the wheel to fill one side and empty the other. Close the other bleeder and turn the wheel the other way and close the bleeder. Turn wheel stop to stop several times. This will clear any air in cylinder. Then open both bleed valves and purge lines if air. Close bleed valves and retest.

Hi Hookup1,
I'd appreciate it if you would clarify the part on the cylinder after pushing the motor to one side, especially the sequence on which bleeder to open/close and when ?? I've bled the system om my boat with the bypass etc. but the wheel still turns hard, maybe there remains air trapped in my cilinder. THANKS, V.

 

[Hookup1]

How hard is hard? Does this only happen when you are reversing direction?

Turning hard is probably not the cylinder. I suspect air in the helm pump or a problem with the valves in the helm pump. Let's see what other members think.

With motor disconnected from the linkage does make sure the motor pivots freely. Grease the steering fittings. How does the steering feel turning from stop-to-stop?

it's been a few years since I repaired my cylinder (leaking) and bleed the system. I have also replaced my helm pump (leaking front seal). The trick is to get cylinder empty on one side, open the bleed, turn wheel the other way and keep turning (letting fluid out but not moving the cylinder), closing bleed.

Best I can remember is turning the wheel hard over to one side (or pushing it over), opening the bleed on the empty side of the cylinder, turning the wheel the other way until you get clean fluid with no air, close the valve. Repeat by turning the wheel to the other side.

Make sure you don't run out of fluid in the bottle that is hanging or it will introduce air.

 

[Vronsky]

Thank you. It concerns a new Mavi Mare system GF150 BRT, identical to SeaStar.
Motor pivots smoothly when disconnected.
When boat has no speed, wheel turns easily.
When moving, there strong resistance in the wheel.
Lock-to-lock turning of the wheel is 5,6, and should be 4,9

I don't want to bother you more than necessary.
Have bled the pump and hoses multiple times with the bypass: cann't imagine any trapped air remaining, unless maybe in the cylinder, so that explains my question.

 

[Hookup1]

Thank you. It concerns a new Mavi Mare system GF150 BRT, identical to SeaStar.
Motor pivots smoothly when disconnected.
When boat has no speed, wheel turns easily.
When moving, there strong resistance in the wheel.
Lock-to-lock turning of the wheel is 5,6, and should be 4,9

I don't want to bother you more than necessary.
Have bled the pump and hoses multiple times with the bypass: can't imagine any trapped air remaining, unless maybe in the cylinder, so that explains my question.

I'm not familiar with Mavi Mare system. Did you just replace the helm pump and cylinder with the Mavi Mare system GF150 BRT? Did you do hoses too? I see that they have different HP rated units. Is yours sized right?

 

[Vronsky]

I'm not familiar with Mavi Mare system. Did you just replace the helm pump and cylinder with the Mavi Mare system GF150 BRT? Did you do hoses too? I see that they have different HP rated units. Is yours sized right?

It's Italian, supposed to be a solid brand.
New hoses as well, also Mavi Mare supplied, part of the kit.
My motor is a Suzuki DF115A, so well within spec.

It's the red parts in your message that is not fully clear to me:
"The tricky part is to get the air out of the cylinder. You do this by pushing the motor over by hand to empty one side, close the bleed (which one?) and turn the wheel to fill one side and empty the other. Close the other bleeder (which one?) and turn the wheel the other way and close the bleeder (which one?) . Turn wheel stop to stop several times. This will clear any air in cylinder."

Thanks,
V.