Was about to purchase some sealed batteries for the change up in my new battery location (starboard to port) and was looking for a pair a sealed Gel or AGM. Yamaha says no no! Flooded wet cell only. From my homework there are no wet celled sealed flooded batteries. Is anyone using sealed batteries AGM or Gel on there Yamaha outboards and if so, any issues? Thanks
sealed batteries???
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agm have been accepted by yamaha for a couple years. check with your tech as to engine/battery compatibility. GW now using Deka Intimidator 8A27M, at least on my Marlin. good luck, ron
Hookup1
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I'm using all Duracell AGM's purchased at Sam's Club.
Group 34 43.10 lbs. 955 MCA 55 AH. $119.32
Group 24 52.40 lbs. 800 MCA 78 AH. Did not see availability at my store.
Group 27 61.55 lbs. 900 MCA 92 AH. $158.88
Group 31 67.35 lbs. 1,000 MCA 105 AH. $179.74
I used a Group 34M Duracell Marine AGM for my Yamaha F150's. About 9 lbs lighter than a Group 24 and 17 lbs lighter than a Group 27 with higher MCA rating but less capacity. Also used for my 4th battery for bow thruster, windlass and bait tank pumps.
For the house I use a single Group 27 AGM.
Group 34 43.10 lbs. 955 MCA 55 AH. $119.32
Group 24 52.40 lbs. 800 MCA 78 AH. Did not see availability at my store.
Group 27 61.55 lbs. 900 MCA 92 AH. $158.88
Group 31 67.35 lbs. 1,000 MCA 105 AH. $179.74
I used a Group 34M Duracell Marine AGM for my Yamaha F150's. About 9 lbs lighter than a Group 24 and 17 lbs lighter than a Group 27 with higher MCA rating but less capacity. Also used for my 4th battery for bow thruster, windlass and bait tank pumps.
For the house I use a single Group 27 AGM.
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wrxhoon
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My boat came with these wet cell sealed American batteries, you should be able to buy them anywhere .
I am not sure what sealed actually means: My batteries are flooded cell type but you can't add water since the cells caps are not removable. I would assume there is some sort of venting and also assume that ithey wouldn't like to be submerged.
I am also curious what document stated no AGMs for Yamis. I always thought it depended on the type and design of the charging system.
That said, I am not a battery expert or even close to one
Maybe what you were reading, Trapper, was a (very) old recommendation? I don't see why it would be a problem.
FYI, WRX, those are NOT sealed. You can (and should) pop the caps off to check level. Those are standard, Deka batteries - but they are very good batteries, none the less.
FYI, WRX, those are NOT sealed. You can (and should) pop the caps off to check level. Those are standard, Deka batteries - but they are very good batteries, none the less.
Yamaha service bulletin couple years ago "approved" AGM. so most likely a "not recommended" prior to that. if you know a Yamaha tech you could probably get a copy. not sure where mine is.I am also curious what document stated no AGMs for Yamis. I always thought it depended on the type and design of the charging system.
That said, I am not a battery expert or even close to one
Yes it was old info. In 2013 they came out with a bulletin that allows AGM batteries on the four stroke Yamaha. So I may have asked for info before doing due diligence. There does not appear to be too much difference in cranking amps etc between Group 24 and 27 etc. and I seem to be really tight on space in the stern hatch. Believe I am winning, all wiring complete, moved wash down pump and trim tab pump, now rerouting fuel lines to and from new location for fuel filter. Still on the hunt for the best batteries to purchase locally.
ROBERTH
GreatGrady Captain
I have been using the Duracell AGM 31's from Sams now also and have about 6 years on them and they still pass a strong Carbon Pile tester load. No issues.
wrxhoon
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Thanks for bringing that to my attention Dennis. I didn't take much notice on these batteries, they were on the boat when I bought her in FLA. I removed them and replaced them soon after I got the boat home . I don't have these so I can't check if the tops come off but I take your word for it . You should know, they probably are very common there.
I take it that the 2 flat caps come off?? They cover 3 cells each??
I thought they were maintenance free . Most batteries sold in Australia for cars,4X4 and marine are maintenance free ( sealed is probably not the right word , they have to have a breather of some sort).
I would think you can buy similar batteries in USA?
Doc Stressor
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I know quite a bit about batteries in boats. Ever since I had one blow up in my old 204c when I hit the ignition key, I've paid a lot of attention to the issues.
1. Sealed flooded cell batteries: The older "maintenance free" flooded cell batteries from back in the '70s and '80 were problematic in boats. These had popup vents that would release explosive hydrogen gas when the battery would overheat. This would happen once enough of the water and battery acid evaporated over time. Early outboards had poor voltage regulation, which would lead to overcharging and electrolyte evaporation once alternator outputs began to increase. This lead to several outboard and boat manufacturers recommending against sealed maintenance-free batteries.
2. Modern sealed flooded cell batteries: These have a regenerator that cycles the electrolyte back into the battery when overcharging occurs. An example of these is the Deka Marine Master series that often come on Grady Whites. They have caps that will allow you to add water to the cells if the electrolyte level drops, but it rarely does because of the regenerator.
3. AGM batteries: These are sealed batteries with electrolyte regeneration and vents that only pop up to release gas in emergencies. They are pretty similar to normal flooded cell batteries with respect to charging characteristics, so they work fine with outboards with one exception: they take a charge much more readily than flooded cell batteries. Their low internal impedance will allow the alternator to provide a much higher current flow than flooded cell batteries. So when the charge state of an AGM battery is low, it will accept the full amperage output of the alternator. Most outboard alternators were designed to operate at their full rated output only on an intermittent basis. So until about 2013, Yamaha recommended against AGM batteries in order to protect their alternators (and avoid warranty claims). I don't know if this was ever really a problem or not. I could have been more of a theoretical thing. But in any case, it is fine to use AGM batteries at least with the newer engines.
4. Gel batteries: These are not really useful on boats except as house batteries where they can be charged using shore power and a special charger. Their optimal charge profile is different from flooded cell and AGM batteries and is not compatible with outboard charging systems.
1. Sealed flooded cell batteries: The older "maintenance free" flooded cell batteries from back in the '70s and '80 were problematic in boats. These had popup vents that would release explosive hydrogen gas when the battery would overheat. This would happen once enough of the water and battery acid evaporated over time. Early outboards had poor voltage regulation, which would lead to overcharging and electrolyte evaporation once alternator outputs began to increase. This lead to several outboard and boat manufacturers recommending against sealed maintenance-free batteries.
2. Modern sealed flooded cell batteries: These have a regenerator that cycles the electrolyte back into the battery when overcharging occurs. An example of these is the Deka Marine Master series that often come on Grady Whites. They have caps that will allow you to add water to the cells if the electrolyte level drops, but it rarely does because of the regenerator.
3. AGM batteries: These are sealed batteries with electrolyte regeneration and vents that only pop up to release gas in emergencies. They are pretty similar to normal flooded cell batteries with respect to charging characteristics, so they work fine with outboards with one exception: they take a charge much more readily than flooded cell batteries. Their low internal impedance will allow the alternator to provide a much higher current flow than flooded cell batteries. So when the charge state of an AGM battery is low, it will accept the full amperage output of the alternator. Most outboard alternators were designed to operate at their full rated output only on an intermittent basis. So until about 2013, Yamaha recommended against AGM batteries in order to protect their alternators (and avoid warranty claims). I don't know if this was ever really a problem or not. I could have been more of a theoretical thing. But in any case, it is fine to use AGM batteries at least with the newer engines.
4. Gel batteries: These are not really useful on boats except as house batteries where they can be charged using shore power and a special charger. Their optimal charge profile is different from flooded cell and AGM batteries and is not compatible with outboard charging systems.
A big thanks Doc for that very informative battery tutorial. Info that is hard to find especially first hand. I am guessing my 2013 Yam F200xb (4 cylinder) will be fine with AGM as there has not been much change in that outboard since. Have you done any research on Lithium batteries for marine use?
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wrxhoon
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This mob reckons their batteries are suitable for marine use .
MEGALIFE BATTERY AUSTRALIA
MEGALiFe Battery Australia are a Direct replacement lithium iron phosphate battery supplier (LiFePO4) for cars, 4x4, bikes, boats and racing applications. Lightweight, high power, intelligent, environmentally friendly and safe power solutions for a MEGALiFe.
megalifebattery.com.au
Doc Stressor
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Other than the high cost, lithium-ion batteries are superior to other technologies in just about every way. They are lighter, can be discharged repeated to almost 0% without damage, and using the right equipment can be charged much faster. However, until the technology becomes more mature, you need to learn a lot about these batteries before switching over.
Most Li-ion batteries intended for marine use are designed for deep cycle house battery or trolling motor use. But we are now seeing lithium batteries designed for starting and dual-purpose applications. For a marine starting battery, you need to find one with a 1000 CCA rating. The deep cycle versions won't be able to deliver that amount of instant current. But there are a number of nice dual-purpose Li-ion batteries that will do a good job both for starting and house purposes. But if you are going to use a bank to power a trolling motor, go with deep-cycle.
You can charge Li-ion batteries directly from an outboard alternator, but this is not ideal. Without going into a lot of technical stuff, the life span of both the battery and the alternator will be reduced. You need a different battery management system to optimally charge Li-ion batteries and to protect the alternator. Several Li-ion starting batteries that are designed as drop-in replacements for flooded cell or AGM batteries have built-in battery management systems. Unfortunately, not all of these work very well. So it is recommended to spend an extra $300-$500 for an external alternator regulator designed specifically for use with Li-ion cells like the Wakespeed WS500 or Balmar MC-614-H. These allow the batteries to be charged rapidly and protect the alternator. Another solution for people with a bank of L-ion batteries used with a trolling motor is to install a DC to DC charger. Here you run the alternator to your conventional batteries and connect one of your flooded cell or AGM batteries to the charger. Once the conventional battery is fully charged, something like 10 amps is used to charge the Li-ion bank. This charges the Li-ion bank a lot slower than a dedicated regulator.
Li-ion chemistries are very safe now, so that shouldn't be an issue. And new chemistries like lithium iron phosphate allows Li-ion batteries to be charged at temperatures below freezing, which is still an issue with earlier chemistries.
Most Li-ion batteries intended for marine use are designed for deep cycle house battery or trolling motor use. But we are now seeing lithium batteries designed for starting and dual-purpose applications. For a marine starting battery, you need to find one with a 1000 CCA rating. The deep cycle versions won't be able to deliver that amount of instant current. But there are a number of nice dual-purpose Li-ion batteries that will do a good job both for starting and house purposes. But if you are going to use a bank to power a trolling motor, go with deep-cycle.
You can charge Li-ion batteries directly from an outboard alternator, but this is not ideal. Without going into a lot of technical stuff, the life span of both the battery and the alternator will be reduced. You need a different battery management system to optimally charge Li-ion batteries and to protect the alternator. Several Li-ion starting batteries that are designed as drop-in replacements for flooded cell or AGM batteries have built-in battery management systems. Unfortunately, not all of these work very well. So it is recommended to spend an extra $300-$500 for an external alternator regulator designed specifically for use with Li-ion cells like the Wakespeed WS500 or Balmar MC-614-H. These allow the batteries to be charged rapidly and protect the alternator. Another solution for people with a bank of L-ion batteries used with a trolling motor is to install a DC to DC charger. Here you run the alternator to your conventional batteries and connect one of your flooded cell or AGM batteries to the charger. Once the conventional battery is fully charged, something like 10 amps is used to charge the Li-ion bank. This charges the Li-ion bank a lot slower than a dedicated regulator.
Li-ion chemistries are very safe now, so that shouldn't be an issue. And new chemistries like lithium iron phosphate allows Li-ion batteries to be charged at temperatures below freezing, which is still an issue with earlier chemistries.
wrxhoon
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That's my main concern besides cost. I would think cost will come down in time.
What is the typical sealed lead acid computer type battery, like the one here on my desk? They say 'spillproof', and can be used in any orientation. Maybe sealed batteries have a soft seal safety release plug somewhere, in case they are hooked up incorrectly, or otherwise overheat.
Never forget the day I leaned over and hooked the jumper cables to my 6 volt Volvo P544, from a 12 volt vehicle. Instant battery explosion.
Never forget the day I leaned over and hooked the jumper cables to my 6 volt Volvo P544, from a 12 volt vehicle. Instant battery explosion.
Doc Stressor
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Those 7 amp batteries are in fact AGMs. They are often called VRLA or valve regulated lead acid batteries. The electrolyte (hydrochloric acid) is in fact liquid, but it is absorbed on fiberglass mats that fit between the lead plates. They are "starved" for liquid so they are just moist, not saturated. This allows them to be mounted in any position without leaking.
They are valve regulated. Inside the sealed case there are 6 cells. Each has a one-directional popup valve that allows gas to escape in the event of overcharging. The gas is not released but the oxygen and hydrogen are recombined into water in a diffuser. Often a chemical catalyst is used. Since the charging amperage is very low, there is no need for emergency venting to the outside of the case. But if you try to use a regular high amp battery charger on them they can overheat and explode!
True gel batteries are different. Here the electrolyte is mixed into a silica gel between the plates. Gel batteries need special chargers, but they do well in extreme deep cycle and hot weather applications.
They are valve regulated. Inside the sealed case there are 6 cells. Each has a one-directional popup valve that allows gas to escape in the event of overcharging. The gas is not released but the oxygen and hydrogen are recombined into water in a diffuser. Often a chemical catalyst is used. Since the charging amperage is very low, there is no need for emergency venting to the outside of the case. But if you try to use a regular high amp battery charger on them they can overheat and explode!
True gel batteries are different. Here the electrolyte is mixed into a silica gel between the plates. Gel batteries need special chargers, but they do well in extreme deep cycle and hot weather applications.
Thanks again Doc, Yikes... you are walking encyclopedia, You certainly have a way of laying it out so even this ageing and somewhat tiny mind can grasp. Much appreciated!!