Self bailing cockpit scuppers

[jkunze]

Hi all, I moved this thread to general discussion as I thought I might have posted it in the wrong section at first since it was getting little notice. Hope this is better.
I Bought a 1987 Fisherman 204 center console this year & have spent the season getting to know her. She’s in great shape for her age, transom seems quite solid, My concern is regarding the self bailing cockpit design of the boat & what type scuppers are best.
I bought her set up with the ping pong ball type scuppers & struggled all year to keep them clear of debris. As much as I cleared them I’d find in short time leaves, debris, crab legs...... kept clogging them. When clogged they just don’t work as designed at all, allowing water to seep in & preventing it from flowing out. The past owner also used drain plugs to close the deck drains in order to keep out water due to the clogged scuppers. The bilge hatch cover was also kept loose for greater access to the bilge area than the 8”round inspection plate allowed.
the other day I went out with a buddy fishing to drift live eels for strippers in the Long Island sound. As we drifted we began to take rollers at the stern which washed over the low wide transom of my boat. The water washed into the bilge & stayed! I removed the drain plugs at the scuppers but little escaped through the set of four. Water also quickly filled the bilge below & the pump was not only overwhelmed but it too was clogging from debris & leaves within the bilge area. What a mess.
So...... we did make it back that night, lol.
Once tied to the dock I ran the bilge pump 30 minutes to clear the boat of water. I had to plug the deck drains again just to do that as they were well under the water line with all the water weight.
The next day I researched the issue & saw lots of conflicting advice online, including here at Great Grady.
Here’s my conclusion & take on this. Please feel free to chime in & give your advice.
I am discarding the ping pong type scuppers. Bad design IMO. The ball scuppers are three piece, including the clear plastic housing & the plastic ball that floats within. Behind this, against the hull is a gasket with a hole that the ball settles into to stem water flowing into the boat. Simple.
In reality the hole in the gasket is much smaller (7/8”d) than the deck drains themselves (1-1/4”d). The gaskets are also installed with the holes at the top side to cause the floating ball to meet the opening within the top of the housing, hopefully plugging it.
This causes the large drain holes in the transom to not only be reduced in size & flow but creates a dam at the bottom of the drain that quickly clogs. The drains clog with any debris trying to flow out the transom.
I thought why would I have such an issue with a 33 year old boat that has lasted this long & not swamped routinely or outright sunk years ago. Surely the original scupper design was working well at some point. I ordered four Attwood flap scuppers & will be fastening/caulking back in the bilge hatch Itself. I’m also putting in a new 8” access port to clear the pump of any debris that does attempt to clog it. The boats drains are all four at 1-1/4” diameter & that should allow a lot of water to escape that does backwash the stern & deck. With the hatch caulked that water should stay on the deck long enough to escape out the drains.
why would anyone use the over engineered ping pong ball type scuppers that clog & reduce the drain hole size? They don’t work well at all.
what is everyone else’s experience with these?

 

[wspitler]

With your scupper outlet and deck level below the water line (as it appears) there is no way for it to be completely self bailing. It appears from your pics that you only have about a foot of freeboard at the transom. I don't think that GW would have designed the scuppers to be that low, essentially under water. My guess is that there has been significant weight added to the stern (four strike vs. two stroke) and/or your hull is waterlogged and sits lower in the water than the original design. Self bailing cockpits must have a floor that is at or above the waterline. The use of a check valve type scupper drain is a workaround. A check valve type scupper can't work until the water in the cockpit is higher than the water level at the transom. The problem with the bilge pump clogging is also worth worrying about. I'd try to start from the bow area and flush all of the trash aft until you get the bilge and limber holes free of debris. The clogging of the pump itself is one issue, but if the free flow of the bilge area clogs forward of the pump, you could have a serious stability problem. My 21' Scout has the scuppers very close to the same level as the waterline and the cockpit sole stays wet with any additional weight aft. Although not ideal, any weight added forward might tend to raise the level aft and get those scuppers higher relative to the waterline. Maybe others with more specific knowledge of the Fisherman 204 will chime in with their experience.

 

[seasick]

Seeing the ball scuppers on a boat is a red flag that there is a water backflow problem. That is caused by the scuppers being below the normal water line. The hull was not designed like that. The low sitting of the hull is caused by extra weight and that comes from usually a wet hull or more commonly, repowering with a motor that is heavier than the original ( often 2 stoke). It is hard to tell exactly but from the last phote, it seems that the water line is 2 inches or so above the scuppers.
In most cases, there isn't a lot that can be done other than try to reduce the weight by removing unnecessary gear and not filling the tank unless absolutely needed.
You also shouldn't have a lot of water in the bilge normally. Water may be leaking in faster than it can get pumped out or the auto float or pump may be mounted higher than it should be.
Sometimes, if you are lucky, when the deck scupper drains are higher then the transom scuppers, those scuppers can be moved higher and still allow gravity draining of the deck. It is a fairly big job if doable.

 

[jkunze]

Thank you Bill. From what I understand these boats always had a wet deck reputation. The scupper drains themselves are about an inch & a half (+-) from the inside floor level itself. There’s two drops at the back where the folding transom panel is mounted & another where the transom itself rises from the floor. The drains are set below that lowest level of deck in small tubular ramps. Lol. Hope that makes sense.
The scuppers themselves do sit in/at the water though. Bottom paint water line is a bit high on her too.
The boat has a high dead rise so the floor of the boat does rise up towards the bow Therefore it’s not like the water travels far from the stern. I believe if the scuppers are working & the floor hatch sealed the water by design should self bail. At least that seems to be how it was designed by Grady. A puddle likely always remains at the transom. Lol, it is called a fisherman after all. Boots required some days.
My problem was that with the bilge hatch cover not sealed to the floor the water that sloshed over the low transom went right into it instead of staying above at the floor level where the drains could evacuate it.
I wondered about the transom being wet also & while I’m sure at 33 years old it’s not bone dry it does not seem saturated. The boat has spent about twenty plus years on a trailer so her time sitting & soaking has been limited. I removed the scupper screws last week & have seen no water weeping out, surely a good sign. I’ll be drilling a hole near the base of the transom during the offseason to see what weeps out. That I can easily seal with west epoxy come spring. I know I can have it moisture tested to but it seems to not be saturated. I do believe there is added moisture weight to some degree though.
Water does not clog forward of the bilge & the only debris that clogs the pump seem to be what drops in through the open hatch cover. On my driveway I often kept it removed to keep it cleaned & allow it to get air circulation.
I will flush out from the anchor locker back to check. Good idea.
I’d love to see a picture of this boats transom in the water when it was new. Can you post one of yours please?
I’ve just really questioned how well those ball scuppers can work though with the reduced drain hole in its gasket. Look at my attached pictures & you can see how it creates a dam effect of the larger brass thru hull drain tubes. Large hole restricted by a small hole. Debris seems to clog at the base of the scuppers gasket. Debris stuck in the gasket opening prevents the ball from sealing against it at all. Not sure the ball type reliably closes well or allows full evacuation flow. Lol it’s hard to get my fishing buddy to not drop everything on the floor. Crab legs, seaweed, killies, potato chips.......you name it he drops it.
I received the parts today & will seal the hatch cover, replace the 8” round inspection cover, replace the scuppers with the flap type, as it was originally built. Then I’ll see if I feel the ball type can improve things from there if need be.
Many days I keep the scuppers plugged from the inside. This keeps the floor bone dry for family. I will keep them open when fishing & the seas are sloshing at the transom.

 

[seasick]

The flaps get stiff over time and may not seal well. Mine seem to stiffen up fairly quickly, like two seasons. Another thing to check is that you replace the flaps (assuming you will reuse the mounts) with the correct size, If I remember correctly, the Tailor Made kits with three different sizes, do not have the correct size for one or both of the OEM flappers. The one that is close is a bit wide and can bind in the hole making a good seal difficult.

 

[jkunze]

Seeing the ball scuppers on a boat is a red flag that there is a water backflow problem. That is caused by the scuppers being below the normal water line. The hull was not designed like that. The low sitting of the hull is caused by extra weight and that comes from usually a wet hull or more commonly, repowering with a motor that is heavier than the original ( often 2 stoke). It is hard to tell exactly but from the last phote, it seems that the water line is 2 inches or so above the scuppers.
In most cases, there isn't a lot that can be done other than try to reduce the weight by removing unnecessary gear and not filling the tank unless absolutely needed.
You also shouldn't have a lot of water in the bilge normally. Water may be leaking in faster than it can get pumped out or the auto float or pump may be mounted higher than it should be.
Sometimes, if you are lucky, when the deck scupper drains are higher then the transom scuppers, those scuppers can be moved higher and still allow gravity draining of the deck. It is a fairly big job if doable.

Hi & thank you for your help. The boat certainly must have some water weight but I don’t think it’s saturated as it’s been mostly trailered & does not weep water from removed screw holes. The engine is a 150 2 stroke, which is probably small & light on her, I believe it’s rated up to 225. I’ll get the transom moisture tested to be certain.
like I had said though, the previous owner kept the bilge cover removed to fully be able to access the bilge area, clean it & air it out. It wasn’t any leaks in the hull but back wash in choppy water coming in over the wide cut transom & dropping right down below. She stays dry when moored. Once water is in the bilge the pump is the only way to get it out. I have a 750 gph pump. The boat can have twin motors on it, though I have only the one. I do keep the tank full as well, old habit from my dad to prevent condensation in the tank.

 

[jkunze]

The flaps get stiff over time and may not seal well. Mine seem to stiffen up fairly quickly, like two seasons. Another thing to check is that you replace the flaps (assuming you will reuse the mounts) with the correct size, If I remember correctly, the Tailor Made kits with three different sizes, do not have the correct size for one or both of the OEM flappers. The one that is close is a bit wide and can bind in the hole making a good seal difficult.

I purchased the Atwood flaps that come with the gasket & trim ring (full sets). Perhaps I’ll buy the replacement flaps now for down the road to make sure they do match up.

 

[glacierbaze]

Pictures from inside the boat would help. Does your boat not have any type of dam at the front of the motor well, to keep over wash off of the deck? Definitely sounds like a problem that has to be fixed, fishing Long Island sound at night, before the water gets any colder.

 

[jkunze]

Pictures from inside the boat would help. Does your boat not have any type of dam at the front of the motor well, to keep over wash off of the deck? Definitely sounds like a problem that has to be fixed, fishing Long Island sound at night, before the water gets any colder.

Here's some pics. Wet day out today as you can see.

 

[SirGrady226]

Here's some pics. Wet day out today as you can see.

Your set up is almost identical to my 87 226, I have the flapper scuppers and they sit slightly above the water line. That back access panel needs to be caulked in like the deck covers for fuel tank and such. That way any water that backs up does not drain into the bilge, and you still have access by using the round smaller access hole that should seal when in place.

 

[wspitler]

Given the exposure of your access plate to water, I'd opt for a screw in plate versus the pop-up it appears you have now. Much more secure.

 

[jkunze]

Your set up is almost identical to my 87 226, I have the flapper scuppers and they sit slightly above the water line. That back access panel needs to be caulked in like the deck covers for fuel tank and such. That way any water that backs up does not drain into the bilge, and you still have access by using the round smaller access hole that should seal when in place.

Thank you sir Grady, I will caulk that access panel & replace the round access panel so it has a new gasket.

Given the exposure of your access plate to water, I'd opt for a screw in plate versus the pop-up it appears you have now. Much more secure.

i purchased the screw in type to replace the original pop up one. I’ll do the gas tank access port the same too. Not sure they still offer the pop ups. I hated needing a tool to pry them open. Good call

 

[seasick]

. I hated needing a tool to pry them open.

That's funny. I need a 'tool' to open my screw in plates!

 

[jkunze]

That's funny. I need a 'tool' to open my screw in plates!

I have woodworkers hands. I get to open all the stuck jars too.

 

[jkunze]

Your set up is almost identical to my 87 226, I have the flapper scuppers and they sit slightly above the water line. That back access panel needs to be caulked in like the deck covers for fuel tank and such. That way any water that backs up does not drain into the bilge, and you still have access by using the round smaller access hole that should seal when in place.

Sir Grady, what product is best to use for caulking in the bilge hatch. I have a tube of 3m 4000 white & a tube of sikaflex 291 black. Will the Sikaflex work well. I’d want to use the black & I realize this must be removable & not permanent.

 

[seasick]

Use GE Silicon, kitchen and bath, almond. If you use 4200, you will have a heck o time later getting it off when you need to and eventually you will need to.

 

[seasick]

I have woodworkers hands. I get to open all the stuck jars too.

I was ( I guess in theory I still am) a wood worker by serious hobby but theses days I have trouble opening my medicine bottles!

 

[jkunze]

I was ( I guess in theory I still am) a wood worker by serious hobby but theses days I have trouble opening my medicine bottles!

Lifelong woodworker here. My trade for years, hobby even longer. I grew up around old boats & brought quite a few home. My neighbor growing up was a retired woodworker who had worked for piels brewery his whole career. He taught me a lot while helping me fix those old boats I’d drag home. Lol, never been happier than when I’m building something. Btw, nobody likes opening those bottles except kids.

 

[jkunze]

Use GE Silicon, kitchen and bath, almond. If you use 4200, you will have a heck o time later getting it off when you need to and eventually you will need to.

What I have is 3m 4000uv. I thought that is the one to use for eventual disassembly. Non-permanent. i may have some kitchen bath silicone around though. Sounds like something I’d have around from a kitchen job or two. Thanks.

 

[SirGrady226]

Sir Grady, what product is best to use for caulking in the bilge hatch. I have a tube of 3m 4000 white & a tube of sikaflex 291 black. Will the Sikaflex work well. I’d want to use the black & I realize this must be removable & not permanent.

I used the kitchen and bath that seasick referred to, it cuts out with just a razor knife if need be.