Steering is Stiff

[DennisG01]

At this point, we're still in the middle of all-hands-on-deck doing winterizations. Once that calms down, I'll get the boat inside the shop. I will re-check that the engine turns easily... and also see how the steering feels with the engine disconnected.

It's been helpful to hear that it SHOULD steer easier than what I have. That, coupled with the fact that it used to steer easier (although it's been a while... hence the need for the reassurance), helps me. I'm also going to check the hoses (best I can, anyways) - maybe one has gotten crimped? Not sure how that can happen all of a sudden... but it's a variable, none-the-less.

 

[Halfhitch]

Dennis, It might be worthwhile to put a Seastar bubbler/bleeder in place. It basically just circulates the fluid through the cylinder and back to the helm pump. That would tell you if the hoses are clear or plugged. Also You might tee into the line with a pressure gauge and see if the helm pump is developing the pressure it should.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/334878205102?_skw=seastar+bleed&itmmeta=01JCR1CVNAKNDFNDZHAJYY6T1E&hash=item4df84be4ae:g:K0UAAOSw9qBkZkjU&itmprp=enc:AQAJAAAA8HoV3kP08IDx+KZ9MfhVJKnAYA4TaUOk8RGKBS3v9LpaFZcfE2dTe9woVsmV5+ap2UlRmcuIbGqygHCsQKd+UWGc6j7ND/X7cEggzbtPTjHj/0T3Gcp1qsXvmXb6X53ngoIyUImGp4L4yaIyG8UhVg9Rgo9T6+ldlbK5LznWtMQwJKIuqHjhHyOJs40zQM0AFfSk5rRQDgMhhaSKxS2uOjOI7cUtFJwaFCo7xIYrlHX8/Vh01W+I9JBgdk+E7Zk3e/XphkN+Us+vITnjFVM6UQDxFXWI4oa3Vy+trKCEWG0Fne5Sl4lXzwdkGXxgeWTwQw==|tkp:BFBM3rqzgeZk

 

[SkunkBoat]

Side question...

Gentleman... this question is NOT meant as sarcastic or unappreciative... far from it. It's more about how "I" wrote my questions and why it seems there are follow up questions when I had already wrote the answer. Again, this is more about "what is it about how I wrote my question that isn't clear"? I realize that sometimes things make sense in a poster's head - but how a reader perceives that info may be different.

In my first post, and subsequently as well, I mentioned that everything on the engine side of things moves freely. But a number of times I have been asked about trying to move the engine with it disconnected from the steering cylinder. That's the part that has spurred my question, here.

this is NOT meant as sarcastic
I think you should have said" I disconnected the motor from the cylinder and it moves freely"
I think you should have mentioned it was a Hynautic and included the picture and model. You should tell us if you have copper lines or hoses.
I think many of us assumed you had a SeaStar system with hoses "just like mine"
I TRY not to impose MY situation onto YOUR question. Thats hard to do. It happens here all the time.
I do try to relate a similar experience because sometimes that will make a light bulb will go off in your head...

I have been in the "troubleshooting over the phone business" for decades and have learned that customers say that something is OK but they really did not check it properly.
I will always ask (too many) questions to get a full picture of a problem and steps taken to identify it. Often people jump on the first symptom and don't do anything to expand on the problem. They really don't even know what is wrong.
In order to help someone it is necessary to "see" the whole picture.

 

[Sardinia306Canyon]

Chris/Seasick, yes, I have greased it - and I do grease it till I see fresh grease come out top and bottom.

Ok, now it's clear to me.

As i wrote already:
i would check the finned anode (if you have one) or if the hydraulic steering is working properly.

It could be that the binding happens only at speed when the engine is bushed back when at plane,
or does the hard steering is also on the trailer or when idling?

Chris

 

[DennisG01]

Ok, now it's clear to me.

As i wrote already:
i would check the finned anode (if you have one) or if the hydraulic steering is working properly.

It could be that the binding happens only at speed when the engine is bushed back when at plane,
or does the hard steering is also on the trailer or when idling?

Chris

No, as I (tried to explain, anyways ) above, it's even stiff at idle... and has gotten worse over time. It's not a fin thing - there's something "wrong" somewhere.

 

[DennisG01]

this is NOT meant as sarcastic
I think you should have said" I disconnected the motor from the cylinder and it moves freely"
I think you should have mentioned it was a Hynautic and included the picture and model. You should tell us if you have copper lines or hoses.
I think many of us assumed you had a SeaStar system with hoses "just like mine"
I TRY not to impose MY situation onto YOUR question. Thats hard to do. It happens here all the time.
I do try to relate a similar experience because sometimes that will make a light bulb will go off in your head...

I have been in the "troubleshooting over the phone business" for decades and have learned that customers say that something is OK but they really did not check it properly.
I will always ask (too many) questions to get a full picture of a problem and steps taken to identify it. Often people jump on the first symptom and don't do anything to expand on the problem. They really don't even know what is wrong.
In order to help someone it is necessary to "see" the whole picture.

Yup, I get that!

Understood on the rest.

I have hoses, not copper lines.

 

[DennisG01]

Dennis, It might be worthwhile to put a Seastar bubbler/bleeder in place. It basically just circulates the fluid through the cylinder and back to the helm pump. That would tell you if the hoses are clear or plugged. Also You might tee into the line with a pressure gauge and see if the helm pump is developing the pressure it should.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/334878205102?_skw=seastar+bleed&itmmeta=01JCR1CVNAKNDFNDZHAJYY6T1E&hash=item4df84be4ae:g:K0UAAOSw9qBkZkjU&itmprp=enc:AQAJAAAA8HoV3kP08IDx+KZ9MfhVJKnAYA4TaUOk8RGKBS3v9LpaFZcfE2dTe9woVsmV5+ap2UlRmcuIbGqygHCsQKd+UWGc6j7ND/X7cEggzbtPTjHj/0T3Gcp1qsXvmXb6X53ngoIyUImGp4L4yaIyG8UhVg9Rgo9T6+ldlbK5LznWtMQwJKIuqHjhHyOJs40zQM0AFfSk5rRQDgMhhaSKxS2uOjOI7cUtFJwaFCo7xIYrlHX8/Vh01W+I9JBgdk+E7Zk3e/XphkN+Us+vITnjFVM6UQDxFXWI4oa3Vy+trKCEWG0Fne5Sl4lXzwdkGXxgeWTwQw==|tkp:BFBM3rqzgeZk

When I flushed and bled, I used (wasted on purpose!) probably something like 4+ quarts. As noted, it did get better... but it's still not right. I am 100% confident it's bled properly.

Pressure gauge... interesting. I like that. That should tell me if there's an issue with the pump.

 

[Sardinia306Canyon]

No, as I (tried to explain, anyways ) above, it's even stiff at idle... and has gotten worse over time. It's not a fin thing - there's something "wrong" somewhere.

Well then i guess it's time for either a overhaul of helm pump and piston or a new seastar system.
We installed Seastar, Hynautic and UFlex hdraulic systems and from my experience Seastar is the best.

Chris

 

[DennisG01]

Well then i guess it's time for either a overhaul of helm pump and piston or a new seastar system.
We installed Seastar, Hynautic and UFlex hdraulic systems and from my experience Seastar is the best.

Chris

Thanks, Chris. I'll still go back and double check all of my work before just replacing, of course!

I'll stick with Seastar if I go new - their customer service has always been really good. I can't speak to the other's customer service as I have never tried... but I like sticking with something "tried and true".

 

[SkunkBoat]

Thanks, Chris. I'll still go back and double check all of my work before just replacing, of course!

I'll stick with Seastar if I go new - their customer service has always been really good. I can't speak to the other's customer service as I have never tried... but I like sticking with something "tried and true".

SEASTAR became part of DOMETIC and finding info and support had been somewhat challenging for a while. But the website looks much better now. It is a great product though.

 

[DennisG01]

SEASTAR became part of DOMETIC and finding info and support had been somewhat challenging for a while. But the website looks much better now. It is a great product though.

Oh, yes. In fact, I've been in contact with a very helpful person there over the last couple days - both with getting part numbers for a new system and also the old, obsolete part numbers for things like cylinder glands/seals... in hopes of finding it on the web somewhere (if needed).

He also just gave me a quick/easy test, which I'll copy and paste below....

Hold the wheel hard over for 10-15 minutes to check hoses. Let it keep pulsating. The relief valves pop at 1000 psi in the helm. The pulsating is the relief valve operating. The hoses will be higher than 1000 psi.

If the hoses don’t burst, you are good to go

The pressure test lets you know the relief valves and check valves are working. It also let you know the cylinder is not bypassing fluid internally.

 

[Sardinia306Canyon]

Dennis, just a warning regarding replacing the piston seals.
Before you order the seals check the two rams very, very well for the smallest nicks or flaked off chrome.
I replaced one on my BW 23 Outrage and it lasted about a months and when i checked for the reason i found a tiny piece of chrome flaked off and the nick destroyed the seal within a month and i had to replace the whole cylinder as i could not get the ram only in reasonable time.
However, if the ram is damaged and ruined the seal you would have a leak there, but still better control both rams for any kind of uneven surface.
Chris

 

[DennisG01]

Good points - thanks, Chris.

 

[Fishtales]

The Seastar power assist option makes steering very, very easy. You can't compare to std hydraulic. The only issues I've had were a warranty exchange due some issue that my dealer took care of and if you drive the engines into the stops, you can blow a fuse. The hoses to the engine are some sort of plastic for the high pressure. If one goes, you will lose steering pretty quickly.

 

[Sardinia306Canyon]

I had many of the original Seastar hoses and most of them for many many years, my last boat had the whole hydraulic steering setup from 2008 and hoses where still fine and i rigged my BW 23 Outrage in 1999 and sold it in 2020 and hydraulic hoses where the same and in good shape even if boat was first 10 years 11 month docked.
Same kind of hoses on my scuba gear including the fill hoses on the compressor, both on usual pressure of 3200 psi and never had a issue.
Someone mentioned in another forum that there are also SS braided hoses for hydraulic steering, however i don't see any need for them.

I saw in my boating life never a broken hose on my or others boats, but many cable steering failures, mainly the mechanical helm mechanism.
Every steering system stop working if the push/pull system breaks, hydraulic or cable steering and it will be the same with full electric steering and that a serious problem if off shore. If outboard/s can be disconnected from cable/hydraulic steering then manual steering by pushing the engine with the feets works, but is a huge pita on a bigger engine, i had to do that togetwer with my coworker at my ex boss dive shop we were working as the manual steering hub broke on a long range dive trip 16 nm far from the harbour.

Chris

 

[Fishtales]

I had a failure after 13 years of age. There is a plastic boot that goes over the hose and the nut at the steering ram at the motor. The boot appeared to chafe the line as the hole was right at the end of the plastic boot (non motor side). There is no bend at this spot at all. Found it weird that it would fail there. Steering was lost within 3 minutes. Glad that I had twins as I was able to get in and back to the dock steering with the binnacles.

 

[Sardinia306Canyon]

Glad that I had twins as I was able to get in and back to the dock steering with the binnacles.

Yep, i wished that then too, but the dive rib had a loud and stinky Yamaha V4 115 HP outboard.
Chris

 

[Chessie246G]

Do you know if you do/do not have a power assist?

No power assist.

 

[DennisG01]

No power assist.

Perfect - thank you!

 

[SkunkBoat]

Dennis, you are probably looking at a new helm and cylinder. My guess is Seastar 1.7 and HC5345. You may need new ends on the hoses. I think Hynautic used Flared connections?
if you are considering power assist, think about an AP first. An AP is much more useful overall than a power assist.
I use it all the time and mostly steer with the buttons once I'm out the inlet...so its essentially power assist. Granted, AP does nothing for you when docking.
IDK if power assist is worth the price. But I have twins for docking...so I don't "steer".