Tilt and Trim Issue

[MarineBob]

I have a 2013 F250 outboard on my Seafarer. No engine issues but what seems to be a developing problem on the tilt/trim. If and only if the boat has sat with the motor up for a while, the ‘down’ action takes a bit of a delay. Never did that before. For example, if the boat is taken to a mooring and its an hour or two until we get to it, the down action will delay maybe 2 seconds before it works fine. If the boat has sat over night with the motor up, when I hit the down on the throttle, the delay might be maybe 3-4 seconds. Then works as usual with no issues. If I dock, raise the motor no issues and if I put the motor back down right then, goes down immediately. Being more of a car guy, I would describe the symptom as air in the system, like spongy brakes…..first couple of pumps, not much action until the air is displaced or compressed, then its ok for the time being. Electrically and mechanically, the system seems ok other than the delay after its been sitting. I see no leaks of hyd fluid. Anyone had this problem?

 

[seasick]

Have you recently checked the trim fluid level?
Most likely issue is air in the system probably due to a low trim fluid level. It could also be several other causes, but checking the level and bleeding is your first procedure. Raise the motor and engage the tilt stop lever so that the motor can't accidentally drop.
Open the reservoir fill cap and add fluid. Regular ATF transmission fluid is recommended . Do not use transmission fluids specialized for specific cars. I think for example ATF-4. Just get plain old AFT.
Fill the reservoir, replace the cap and raise the motor to release pressure on the safety latch. Disengage latch and lower motor. Wait a minute and then raise the motor. Wait a minute and then lower motor.
Repeat 2 or 3 times.
Hopefully that will fix the issue. Some slow loss of fluid is normal but a bad seal can result in a problem in a short time.

 

[Halfhitch]

During those seconds of no movement, do you hear the motor running but no movement, if so listen to Seasick. If you push the button and there is silence for a few seconds then it starts to move once you hear the motor, then it may be your directional solenoid taking a crap. See if it does the same thing on the engine mounted tilt switch also. If it does it on the shifter but works fine on the cowl mounted switch, then it may be the switch on the shifter/throttle lever or it's wiring may be loose.

 

[MarineBob]

As soon as you hit the switch, motor runs, sounds fine, just no movement for several seconds, then everything is like its supposed to be. Any moves after that, no issue unless the boat has sat not running for a few hours. Sounds like the place to start is the resevoir

 

[glacierbaze]

What if you leave the motor down, does it hesitate before going up for the first time?

 

[MarineBob]

When the motor is down, only observation is with motor running, yesterday for example. Out for 3-4 hours, shut down at a mooring, hit switch for ‘up’, immediate response. Only delay seems to be ‘down’ after its been up and off for more than ……….. a while….by that I mean an hour , maybe? Overnight, for sure on first startup, there is the few second delay. came in yesterday to mooring, put motor up after shutting down. Then put it down to see reaction, immediate response, no delay. And back up with no issue. I think the comments regarding a seeping leak, likely a ‘tired’ seal letting some air into the system is the problem. Hope to get a chance to take a look today

 

[Halfhitch]

Sounds like you should follow seasicks advice above. In addition, if you aren't already aware, the tilt/trim hydraulic system has relief valves built into both the up and down direction of movement that open under a given pressure and allows fluid to be circulated back to the tank(reservoir). When trying to eliminate air in the system it helps pass the air back to tank if when the ram reaches its limit in each direction, you don't release the button the moment it hits its limit but continue to hold the button down. You will hear a squeal or squall sound. That is the sound of fluid and any air bypassing the relief valve back to tank. If you do have considerable air, you will hear the pitch of the squall sound change in just a second or so as the air passes and solid fluid flows by the relief valve. Do this in both directions a couple of times and after it has sat for a day or longer check the fluid level again, top off if necessary and do the "over relief" duty again. Once you have all the air worked out, it is good to open the reliefs as described once in a while to keep the system healthy.

 

[seasick]

I advised based on the most common cause of the problem. There are other causes possible but some of those may clear up just by adding fresh fluid and cycling it a few times. You can empty the reservoir with a big syringe and a piece of small diam tubing like aquarium filter hose.

 

[MarineBob]

Thanks for the replies. Got another input thinking the issue is valves in the 10 yr old system perhaps gunked up and sticking. Boats at a marina so not having maintenance access, asked them to looked at it. They’ve been accurate and fair with a couple other repairs. I’ll note what the solution is. One more input, this morning. Went to lower the motor and it would not go down. Tried the throttle and engine side switches….neither would lower the motor. So then I had my better half actuate the down on the throttle and I gave the engine a couple of ‘manly’ side to side and push down jiggles. Down it went

 

[seasick]

That might be an indication of a frozen motor bracket rod. There are grease fittings, some hard to see but they need maintenance.
If would help to know the following. When the motor would not go down, did you hear the tilt motor running?
If so, if you held the switch did the motor sound get louder, surge, or 'scream'?
Did you try to tilt up a bit and then down? If so, did the motor move at all? or only when you man handled it
I still think it needs fluid. Let's see what the mechanic has to say.

By the way, did you happen to notice if the seals around the trim pistons were wet with oil?

 

[MarineBob]

The switch immediately engages the pump motor. No odd sounds, nice and smooth like it was working properly. Once the motor starts to tilt, smooth as a babys bottom. Up is never an issue. And once it moves, down, back up…..then down is immediate and no issue. This afternoon when we came back in and I ran into the Marina owner….been servicing Yammies for ever. He was fairly confident from the symptoms its some sticking valve, maybe just years of gunked up. The piston/cylinder seals are clean and no sign of leaks. When I got it to go down this morning, it wasn’t so much with a down push as a side to side wrestle, if that makes sense……like it got instuck. Oh yeah, one of the dock guys suggested there is some bracket that sometimes needs greasing or some attention when the tilt is misbehaving. That might be the culprit

 

[Halfhitch]

The fact that shaking the motor made it wake up makes me think it may be a bad/loose ground.

 

[MarineBob]

The pump and electrics always engage, but it took the jiggling to sort of free up a stuck something

 

[seasick]

The rod I referred to is called the lower shock mount pin. I had to look up its name

The fact that shaking the motor made it wake up makes me think it may be a bad/loose ground.

Could be but not if the OP hears the trim motor running.

 

[Fishtales]

Could be a number of things:
- Electrical - I've had sticky or wet switches in the past that take extra time or presses to enable the system. Connections should be verified. Can also run the trim on the motor and controls independently. I've cleaned the switches and sprayed to lubricate and drive out water with good success in past.
- Mechanical - good discussions able on that.
- Hydraulic - likely air in the system and something letting it in. I've had to change the large ram on one of my engines as the seal went and the ram (sorry don't have part name) was scored.

 

[MarineBob]

Hows about a simple answer? Low fluid. But no one can find any sign of a leak. Ran the motor up-down half a dozen times, in the water, out of the water. No leaks on land, no visible oily film on water. Go figure. Seems the fliud had to have gone somewhere. I do not understand why the motor would always go up but not down low on fluid. Wish I had an intimate knowledge of how the tilt/trim works. Anyway, simple solution but I am still thinking there has to be a leak, somewhere. Is it possible there could be a leak that is allowing the leaking fluid to get onto some hot engine part that burns it off as the engine is running? I‘m just sort of thinking out loud but that could explain not seeing a leak if it were very small and boiling off the leak as the motor is run for some period of time?

 

[seasick]

Prior to this issue, how often did you check the fluid level? I bet rarely
Every time you use the trim and tilt, a little oil is left on the rams. Over a long time time, that can add up. As the rams age, they also become less smooth and that uses up a bit more oil.
Oil leaks through the seals on the rams are common but tend to show up first when the pump is working the hardest as is the case when you tilt up and hit the stop.
In any case, the fix was simple and that's good.

 

[seasick]

One more tidbit about an oil slick.
The best time to check is not when operating but rather a day or so after tilting the motor up for dockage. In addition the waters have to have been fairly calm. Before doing anything with the motor, gently rock the hull side to side and then look aft for any sheen near the motor mount. Let us know if you see any sheen. Oil leaks from the pressure release valve are very hard to see but if that valve leaks it will run straight down into the water where it can sit until the water is disturbed.

 

[MarineBob]

This morning when we went out the boat had been at a mooring over night with the motor up. The water in the harbor was smooth as a baby’s butt and no oil. (Not so much once we got to open water) But I suppose having sat overnight, the motor having been tilted up last night, any minor leaking would have dispersed. Presumably when the boat was readied in the end of May, everything was checked and either ok or fixed. Probably have 40-50 hrs this summer and 10-12 trips, give or take. So I am hoping all fluids were checked late May. The motor now has about 400-425 hrs of documented use and pretty good maintenance by original owner. I’ve put about 80-100 hrs since I got it and had who I feel are solid-reliable techs, taking care of the boat. It does make sense that with the environment in which these motors live, the hyd seals on the lift pistons are not going to live forever. I guess now its keep an eye on the level and sees where it goes. And the boat / motor is a 2013, so pushing 10 years old.

 

[seasick]

It is easier to top off the level rather than try to determine where it is. You have to be consistent also in how you check. The most consistent is to raise the motor all the way, engage the stop level and then lower the motor till it just rests on the stop lever.
The reservoir will be it lowest when all the rods are fully extended. If there is air in the system, you may need to repeat the top off, cycle the tilt, raise and wait a few minutes and top off.
The topping off is often overlooked. as routine maintenance. If you hear the high pitched gurgling sound when tilting up or down, there is probably low fluid or sometimes dirty fluid that cause the check valves to act up.