Toilet Question/Need Advice

[seasick]

Without an original wiring diagram, I can't answer that. Do you have a windlass? That draws a lot more current than the macerator. I will repeat myself in saying that a direct connection from the breaker at the helm to the battery (battery terminal) is a no-no and I wouldn't expect it.

 

[Don Davis]

No windlass, I have only had this boat since early December and have been going through everything and replacing or fixing as needed so nothing surprises me anymore. A good diversion during the Covid lockdown I suppose. I wish I had an original wiring diagram, I did download an old owners manual for the 226/228 so there is a lot of overlap information. So please excuse my ignorance but it’s still a no no to connect directly to the battery even with the 25 amp circuit breaker in between?

 

[seasick]

No windlass, I have only had this boat since early December and have been going through everything and replacing or fixing as needed so nothing surprises me anymore. A good diversion during the Covid lockdown I suppose. I wish I had an original wiring diagram, I did download an old owners manual for the 226/228 so there is a lot of overlap information. So please excuse my ignorance but it’s still a no no to connect directly to the battery even with the 25 amp circuit breaker in between?

ABYC regs say that there needs to be over current protection close to the battery. I will look to see what the distance requirement is.
Think about it in practical terms. Suppose for whatever reason the power feed to the breaker at the helm shorts to ground. That presents a hard short across battery positive and negative. With no current protection, 100s of amps will flow and the wire will melt and burn. So might the boat.
There is a master breaker near the battery compartment that feeds the accessory bus, It is there for a reason

 

[seasick]

The regs are a tad confusing but here they are:

11.10.1.1.1. OVERCURRENT PROTECTION DEVICE LOCATION: Undergrounded conductors shall be provided with overcurrent protection within a distance of seven inches (175 mm) of the point at which the conductor is connected to the source of power measured along the conductor.
That requirement changes with the type of conductor;
Mounting placement dimensions for a fuse or circuit breaker (7"/40"/72" ABYC rule): 7 inch maximum if the conductor is not housed in a sheath or enclosure in addition to the wire insulation, 40 inch maximum if the conductor is housed in a sheath or enclosure in addition to the wire insulation, 72 inch maximum if the conductor is connected directly to the battery and housed in a sheath or enclosure in addition to the wire insulation.

I do not know what 'undergrounded' conductor means

 

[Don Davis]

Interesting I don’t think I have seen a master breaker near the battery, I did replace the night switch battery selector as the previous one was pretty beat up. Does someone have a picture of where that master breaker might be located ?

 

[seasick]

It seems that the word should be ungrounded, nor undergrounded...

Exception 1. If it is physically impractical to put the fuse or circuit breaker within seven inches of the source of the power it can be up to 40 inches (101.6 cm) away, if the wire is contained for it's entire length between the source of power and the circuit breaker, in a sheath or an enclosure.

This has been interpreted many ways. The obvious is a conduit. But who uses conduit on a boat? Conduit might be used on really big boats. Putting a sheath such as wire loom or heat shrink wire covering over the wire works. Some even say that wrapping it in electrical tape is ok. I think that this is really a shoddy way to do it and not very professional. There are many different wire sheaths available, some that are fire resistant. Also if the wire is in an enclosure such as a panel box or electrical box then it is ok. The whole idea here is to protect the wire in such a way that if it overheats it doesn't set the boat on fire.

 

[Keeldad]

The master breaker on my ‘99 226 is on the stbd side interior transom next to the battery selector switch. Small box with red “pop up” type breaker. Sorry, don’t have a pic. The attached pics are from an original owner’s manual for the ‘99 226/228. The only mention of a macerator pump wiring I can find is on the wiring color code chart.

 

[seasick]

Yup, that is where the accessory breaker should be. It protects the main feed to the boats power bus that almost everything electrical is wired to.
As mentioned, it has to be pretty close to the battery switch. It should not be directly connected to the battery so that when the battery switch is OFF, the power at the accessory bus or the DC panel is also OFF.

 

[Don Davis]

Interesting as I have replaced the battery selection switch or night switch as some people call it. The red power wire and black negative wire for the panel under the helm are connected directly to the main battery, it seems that my boat is missing a breaker possibly from the previous owner. But I will keep looking, hopefully I’m wrong, thanks.

 

[seasick]

No negative cables should not be connected to the switch at all. ( just because the wire is black, it doesn't mean it is a ground. Folks who rewire use what they have)
If the switch is a dual battery type, there are two inputs, one each (red) from the two batteries and one output terminal that feeds the accessory bus and the motor
On the two inputs, there may be an additional smaller wire that feeds the automatic bilge pump. That feed might alternately be connected to a positive battery terminal. Regardless, it should have an inline fuse on it.
If the wire that feeds the main bus under the helm is connected to the battery directly or to one of the two inputs on the switch, it needs to be moved to the output side so that it is not powered when the switch is OFF. In addition, the accessory feed has to be current protected.
It may be that somebody who didn't understand boat electrics, rewired some feeds.

 

[usmm1234]

are there any inline fuses near the battery?

 

[Don Davis]

I can’t find any fuses or a circuit breaker near the batteries at the transom any suggestion as to what size of circuit breaker I should install for the boat? Thanks

 

[usmm1234]

I can’t find any fuses or a circuit breaker near the batteries at the transom any suggestion as to what size of circuit breaker I should install for the boat? Thanks

The corroded breaker in the first pictures is 25 amp. I would replace that. Then do the following. What you need is a 12volt test light with a 20ft jumper wire. You can make a jumper wire with a 20ft piece of wire and two crimp on alligator clips. Clip that to your test light and the NEGATiVE pole on your battery. Make sure your big red battery switch is on. Then trace and test all connections going to your head. For example. Test for power at the button/switch.

 

[seasick]

The corroded breaker in the first pictures is 25 amp. I would replace that. Then do the following. What you need is a 12volt test light with a 20ft jumper wire. You can make a jumper wire with a 20ft piece of wire and two crimp on alligator clips. Clip that to your test light and the NEGATiVE pole on your battery. Make sure your big red battery switch is on. Then trace and test all connections going to your head. For example. Test for power at the button/switch.

I would suggest that you disconnect the battery grounds (to avoid shorts) and then unmount the battery switches. I can't say if you need to disconnect the wires at the switches yet, it depends on how much slack you have. Now you need to take pictures of everything especially the backs of the battery switches. Make a drawing of every wire and connection including any and all connections at the batteries. If you remove any connections, mark the cable with a piece of tape and documenting where it came from. Now you need to trace as well as possible, where the cables go.

Regarding the breaker for the toilet; At the moment that is the least of my concerns. It is obviously incorrectly wired. I can't tell you what to connect it to yet since I don't understand the wiring right now.
One more time, I will list what there should be normally.

Some loads get connected to unswitched battery voltage. In your case, that is probably just the automatic bilge pump feeds. If you have two bilge pumps and two or more batteries, generally each bilge pump feed connects to a different battery ( so that one can still work if the other battery runs down).
If you have a battery charger, the outputs would connect directly to the battery and should be fused near the battery))
Some stereo radios have a memory feed that is also directly connected to a battery to keep your pre set channels memory. That should also e fused near the battery

If you have two or more batteries and two switches, note that each switch has two inputs, usually battery one and battery two and one output. In addition for dual batteries, there will be heavy gauge jumpers that connect the two switches together so that each switch can select either battery (or both)
This is important to remember: A direct connection to a battery can be made at the battery terminal itself OR at the input terminal of a battery switch(since that terminal is directly wired to the battery). That is why you have to undo the battery switches to see what is on the back (assuming rear connections which are most common).
The main boat feed for all accessories comes from one of the switches output terminal. (In other words, the accessory feed will not be live unless the battery switch is on). That wire will be a lot smaller gauge than a battery cable but will still be larger that most wires used for accessories. That feed has to have over current protection near the battery! The capacity of the breaker can not be greater than the allowed current in the feed based on wire gauge and total run length ( that includes the length of the feed AND the length of the ground return.
It is also very important to note that you can't size the breaker for more current than the ground wire is sized ( weakest link theory).
OK, so let's say in a typical application, we now have power wired via a battery switch and a breaker to the main DC bus or panel. Usually all accessories would be connected to a fuse or breaker at that panel/bus. Some loads perhaps like your toilet, may be connected to the 12v bus directly and not through a fuse, in effect an extension of the accessory bus.In that case there must be a fuse or breaker somewhere before the load. In your boat, it seems that a breaker was mounted at the wall behind the cabin. That's OK as long as wherever that breaker is getting power form is also protected as described above.
Although it doesn't seem to be the case on you vessel, many times accessories are added that require more current than the accessory bus was designed to carry. Windlasses are the more common add-on that can run into this issue.
In those cases, it is often necessary to run new feeds both ground and positive directly to the battery switch and battery ground. In that case just like the regular accessory case, over current protection is required at the battery area. Yes, windlasses usually have a breaker at the dash but that in itself does not meet the requirement for over current protection. ( as a side note, the breaker at the battery should be sized larger than the one supplies with the windlass so that should the windlass pop a breaker, it pops the one at the helm and not in the battery compartment..

Remember the goal is to make sure that wires don't overheat and catch fire due to too much current draw or a short.
If you don't feel comfortable with wiring and are not familiar with the theories and best practices, you should get help

I would'n normally be typing such a long message but I am getting really bored staying home. In addition the weather lately hasn't been all that great and is depressing.
Have fun!

 

[Don Davis]

Wow thanks for this information very much appreciated, I have called a friend to help me out that has been in the automotive/marine electrical business for many years he’s coming over today or tomorrow . It would be great to know how big of a circuit breaker I should install near the battery switch at the transom for my 228G Seafarer? I am replacing the 25 amp circuit breaker as well that is in the cabin for the toilet with a new macerater pump from Amazon thanks Don

 

[seasick]

I can't be sure but it is probably a 30 or 40 amp. If you can determine the wire gauge for the accessory feed, you can figure the max allowed for let's say 30 foot run (15 to the helm and 15 feet back. If the wire is 10 gauge, max would be about 30 amps, if it is 8 gauge, max would be about 40 amps.


I also suggest you take a look at the perko web site for examples of wiring for an assortment of switch and battery combinations

PERKO Inc.

PERKO Inc. - An manufacturer of marine hardware and accessories.

www.perko.com

What do you have now, 2 batteries and one battery switch? If so, wiring is fairly simple ( I hope)

 

[Don Davis]

Yes 2 batteries and a single switch, thanks.

 

[Don Davis]

Well I finally see the reference to the 40 amp breaker and the two 5 amp breakers in the accessories wiring diagram that Keeldad supplied above and the same one that I downloaded a little while ago, mystery solved! Must have been the tiny letters and cluttered diagram, thanks

 

[seasick]

Do you see the reference or actually see the accessory breaker?

 

[Don Davis]

I see the reference in the diagram now but have never found that breaker in the boat, I don’t think it’s anywhere in the boat, unless I’m blind...