Trailer: to buy or not to buy?

[family affair]

I found an aluminum Continental trailer near me that might work for our Voyager. It has plenty of capacity at 8500 lbs, but of course it has some issues worth pondering. For example:

1) The trailer was used in salt water and has sat outside its entire life of 8 years. The finish on the aluminum is looking dull. Is the aluminum on these anodized clear or is the material bare? I'm wondering if I can bring back the luster.

2) The trailer has no brakes or actuator. I like this because it gives me the opportunity to put exactly the brakes I want on the trailer. Of course this raises questions:
- disk or drum? I'm leaning towards drum because my experience has shown they are less prone to problems especially if I get galvanized components. I will only be using in fresh water.
- I know many people will say to put brakes on both axles, but our boat is the lightest configuration at about 5600 lbs and I would like to keep maintenance to a minimum, so one axle. What size drum/disc would I use?
- I know electric brakes are more consistent, but I really don't want to screw with outfitting my truck on top of the trailer. Another negative for electric is that only a truck set up for electric will work.

3) Lastly, price. I can get a new Load-rite with LED' s, radials, guides, discs on one axle, 8400 lb capacity with set-up out the door for about $4500. I'm thinking the above trailer is only worth $2k at best.

Thoughts?
Thanks

 

[DennisG01]

If that's 8,500lbs carrying capacity, I would skip it. Too big of a trailer and your boat will get jarred and bounced and vibrated all around since there's not enough weight on the trailer.

I'm not 100% positive, but I believe the trailers are bare aluminum.

Brakes... what does Ohio require? Many states require brakes on all axles. Personally, I'd go for discs, but I can see points being made both ways. Do both axles have the brake flange for the mounting of brakes? Brake size is dependent on wheel size, but it should take either 10" or 12". Bigger the better.

 

[Salinity Now]

2k with no brakes, may be a bit much. You figure new lights, new set of DISC brakes, Actuator, hoses posible bearing & springs will add up t0 $700+ really fast; if you are DIY'er then you can save $$ but add labor, you might get out from a shop under $1000.

If you buy new, you'll have a warranty, but I would hope the brakes are not Tiedown, I have nothing good to say about those things, you can assume 12months of trouble free use out of them, after that pistons start ceasing and they stop working quickly.

If you can get that trailer for well under 2k, do it yourself, add quality components that you know are installed right, Id say go for it. If you have to drop money into paying someone else to install, ontop of asking price of $2,000 I dont think its worth the trouble.

I re-did my brakes this year, 3 sets of Tiedowns, to 2 sets of Deemax and I absolutely love them also removed my Titan Surge actuator for a Dexter EoH and I have never realized how much control I was lacking on towing my boat.

Single brakes for that trailer should be fine, I believe oversizing trailers is a good thing (within reason ofcourse) I bought a triaxle, 12600capacity to tow my 8000 boat, so 8000capacity to tow a 6000 boat doesnt seem to bad to me.

 

[family affair]

I had wondered about the 8500 lb capacity. A local dealer has Load Rites on his lot and can order whatever he wants. A 6200 lb trailer uses a lighter frame compared to the next size up at 7400. He claims the 8400 is the same but bigger brakes. I wonder if the spring rates are different?
Ohio only requires one axle.
I would do the work myself.
I need to check the flanges.
I'm against disks because of the constant issues I read about regarding locked-up calipers unless someone can convince me otherwise.

 

[DennisG01]

Respectfully, I disagree that 1-axle brake is fine. Would anyone drive a car that only had brakes on one axle? If you only have brakes on one axle of the trailer, you're making them work harder - PLUS, putting more wear and strain on your truck and it's brakes. Whether a state says it's legal or not, doesn't mean it's totally fine. Similar with HP and a boat engine, you'll never hear anyone say "I wish had less".

I work part time at a marina (inland, so 90% of our customers are trailer boaters) and I can tell you that there are no more problems associated with discs than there are with drums. Drums have leaking cylinders and can get crap built up inside. Especially with fresh water and using the brakes on a regular basis, it's VERY rare to have problems with a trailer that is used on a regular basis. Now, the ones that just sit... whole 'nother story!

I can also tell you that one brand of trailer brakes hasn't shown itself to be any better or any worse than any other. This isn't just based on a single experience, this is based on somewhere around 1,000 boats that come into the service department each year.

Again, I'm not really trying to convince you that you "should" get discs, just not to base your decision on reports you see on the internet... remember, 99% of the time, people don't log on the 'net to rave about how well their braking system is holding up - they usually on report something when it's bad. Given that disc brakes have become so much more popular over the last 10 years, it's feasible to think that there are more disc brake systems out there, so there would be similarly more incidences of disc problems than drums.

For what it's worth, when I bought my Sundancer (10K gross trailer), I converted from the existing drum to discs (Tie Down brand). That was almost 10 years ago and no problems. I'm occasionally in salt and always rinse them off when I am. I do prefer EOH, but didn't do it at the time.

 

[Parthery]

Aluminum trailers anodize....that's the dull color. You can acid wash it off but it's going to come back anyway and it actually provides a barrier to protect the aluminum.

8500 lb capacity is plenty for the Voyager. I would check and make sure the trailer is LONG ENOUGH though....I've owned 3 Continental Trailers in my life and all were short...the bunks had to be lengthened to get the boat into the proper position.

I'd go brakes on both axle and I'd go disc. Because you are fresh water drums may work better but drums hold water and down here that means rust, quickly. I also second the vote to stay away from Tie Down.

Run the math for the trailer,and add brakes, tires, lights, bearings, and bunks if you wind up having to replace them. If I had to guess, you will be within $500 of the new Load Rite by the time you are done. Unless you can buy the trailer for $1500...it probably doesn't make sense financially.

 

[family affair]

I have 3 major issues with disc brakes:
- they bite equally well in reverse as they do forward making backing up a potential issue if I go with a surge set-up. Drums primarily bite forward only. Correct me if I'm wrong.
- The trailer will sit most of the time. I would think I would be more prone to caliper issues unless I spend big money for ss.
- a galvanized wheel cylinder is about $20 to replace where as a quality caliper is at least double.? My experience with a caliper failure has always meant being stranded with immediate repair being required. With a drum at least the shoe burns off and you can continue to drive.

I agree that financially it will be close to new, but here are my issues with load rite:
- see above.
- torsion axles.

The Voyages has the stepped transom. Eyelet to back of the hull is 22 ft. Trailer is for 25 ft. I'll check the length but I think I'll be ok.

 

[DennisG01]

I have 3 major issues with disc brakes:
- they bite equally well in reverse as they do forward making backing up a potential issue if I go with a surge set-up. Drums primarily bite forward only. Correct me if I'm wrong.
- The trailer will sit most of the time. I would think I would be more prone to caliper issues unless I spend big money for ss.
- a galvanized wheel cylinder is about $20 to replace where as a quality caliper is at least double.? My experience with a caliper failure has always meant being stranded with immediate repair being required. With a drum at least the shoe burns off and you can continue to drive.

I agree that financially it will be close to new, but here are my issues with load rite:
- see above.
- torsion axles.

The Voyages has the stepped transom. Eyelet to back of the hull is 22 ft. Trailer is for 25 ft. I'll check the length but I think I'll be ok.

--When you add disc brakes, you'll also put in a lockout solenoid so no fluid is sent aft when in reverse. There will also be a physical lockout (usually a pin of some type) in case the solenoid fails.

-- I'm not sure you'd be "more" prone to issues with the discs. However, if you've acquired a comfort level with drums over the years, then that goes a long way.

-- Yes, replacement parts are more $. Not too hard to remove caliper pins - just carry a line cap with you. I've got one around... somewhere...... :roll:

You can get spring axles with LR. Another inexpensive manufacturer to check with is Tidewater. Both are made near me - Tidewater was started by former employees of LR.

I still think 2K carrying lbs of extra trailer is bad idea. You won't experience problems right away, but it will take it's toll on the boat and the equipement over time. Even the trailer manufacturers I deal with don't recommend it. However, if the trailer is basically being used to store the boat, then it doesn't really matter.

 

[Parthery]

I'm confused...do you not want torsion axles? I've had both and any new trailer that I spec now always has torsions...

You can go with the cadmium / dacromet coated Kodiak or Deemaxx and that will be more than sufficient for fresh water only. I run them on my trailer that sees both fresh and salt water and 2-3 years later they look and work like new.

When you go with disc brakes, you replace the coupler and include one with a solenoid. The solenoid becomes the 5th wire and connects to the tow vehicle. When you put the truck in reverse, the solenoid activates which cuts off brake pressure so the trailer can back up. If you have to back "uphill", as I do in my driveway, I flip the flat 5 wire plug over and plug it in so the headlight lead matches up with the solenoid...this allows me to pull forward and completely remove all brake pressure, then back up a hill with no issues.

Finally, if your boat is a 24 Voyager, you will be in the 8K range. I've owned 2 225s and 2 226/228s. The 226/228 scaled out north of 6000 lbs on the trailer, and the 225s weren't too far behind. The trailer size is, IMHO, correct.

 

[BCLII]

The aluminum trailers are Mill finish! They are not clear anodized!

 

[DennisG01]

Finally, if your boat is a 24 Voyager, you will be in the 8K range. I've owned 2 225s and 2 226/228s. The 226/228 scaled out north of 6000 lbs on the trailer, and the 225s weren't too far behind. The trailer size is, IMHO, correct.

I think the math is wrong here. Keep in mind we've been discussing carrying capacity, not gross. I only quickly looked at the specs for a Voyager, but if I did MY math correctly (which I may not have!) then the boat, engine, 2 gas tanks, 2 batteries, and 300lbs for gear is about 5,950lbs. I'm not sure if the boat carries a water tank.

Not to beat a dead horse, but it is not good to have a trailer with that much extra carrying capacity. Ever ride in an older 1-ton truck that isn't hauling anything and has the tires pumped up to max? It's a teeth-rattling ride - that's what the boat will be getting.

 

[Bob's Cay]

One thing that I do not think anyone has mentioned. You need to consider your future uses and eventual sale perhaps. Once you set your boat on a suitable trailer you may decide to expand your boating horizon and take-off for some distant port that (gasp!) maybe saltwater! You may have to cross state lines into a state that does require brakes on both axles.

Or should you decide to upsize / downsize / give up boating you will have a boat and trailer to sell. It will be much easier if you are selling equipment most buyers want rather than something that meets your specific requirement.

Talk to trailer builders and I think you will see that a vast majority sell trailers with disc brakes on both axles

 

[family affair]

I appreciate all the feedback.

I already have a trailer. I just don't care for it because the ramps around here are so steep that It makes loading and unloading very difficult. If we had shallow ramps around here I would gladly keep it.

I tried calling Continental today and could not reach the tech service person to hear their take on the 2500 lbs of additional capacity. As I had mentioned earlier with Load-Rite, the 7400 and 8500 lb models have all the same components minus the brakes. On Continentals website they show no trailer in the 7k lb range. It jumps from 5900 lbs directly to 8500 lbs. I didn't see anywhere on the site where it says if you have a boat from 6k-7k shop elsewhere! :mrgreen: I'll need to try again tomorrow to see what they say.

You all are close to talking me into a disc set-up! Eastern Marine might not even have something in a drum set-up for this trailer. Thanks for the input on the different brands. Oh, and thanks for the education on the lock-out solenoid.

I've had experience with torsion failures and wasn't happy from a design standpoint that there is zero redundancy. Running a tandem axle trailer with plenty of reserve capacity makes that more of a moot point I think.

Again, thanks for the input.

 

[family affair]

I was able to speak to someone at Continental today. Not impressed. He first told me that since the boat was about 6k lbs that I should just buy their 6k lbs trailer. I then asked about reserve capacity of 10-15%. His response was "ya, that might be a good idea." :roll:
I then asked about the 8500 lb model. His response, "I think that might work." Needless to say he didn't inspire confidence.

I would like to think that using a trailer to 70% of its capacity would still net a good ride. It's not like I'm putting a bicycle in the back of a 1 ton truck.

Dennis, did the manufacturer that advised against an over capacity trailer have a similar condition as to what we are talking about? Meaning a 6k lb trailer for a 2k lb boat, or was it similar to this application using 70% of the rated capacity?

 

[DennisG01]

The times it's come up with any of my trailer manufacturers that we deal with, it's been boats about your size to a few thousand pounds heavier. Nothing small, and nothing gigantic - medium sized trailerable boats. The conversations basically centered around trying to stay within 10% tops of rated capacity. However, and this is something they said one would never find printed anywhere, there's an inherent margin or error built into trailers. They basically said it's totally fine to have a trailer that is right at it's limit. But again, they'll never publicly say that.

The place I work at has been around since 1936, so it's not some fly-by-night operation. In fact, it's the second oldest Sea Ray dealership in the world. All of the trailers that come shipped with a Sea Ray (currently using ShoreLand'r) are just about dead even as far as "wet" boat weight and trailer capacity. When we sell a new trailer, regardless of boat brand... same thing - figure out the real-life wet weight and order the trailer that matches. We sell a lot of boats and trailers - if there was any merit to getting a extra large trailer I'd tell you. I'm not trying to sell anything - I'm just on this site as regular, old boater who just bought an older Grady and wants to fix it up.

Believe me, I understand the thought process of thinking that bigger is better. But in this case, only to an extent. You WANT to have the right amount of weight on the springs so you get a natural flex as it goes down the road.

That being said - maybe the existing trailer can be modded to work for you? If you're willing to try, I'll help with any advice I can.

 

[family affair]

Dennis,
Based on my technical experience I would agree with your statement. A maximum load rating must take into account impact loads induced onto the trailer effectively exceeding the static load significantly. However, past experience with an EZ Loader (bought new) that was loaded to within 15% of max capacity resulted in bent axles from the torque created while backing at an angle and bunks that would constantly sag despite being properly torqued.

What to do? :bang

 

[DennisG01]

All I can offer is that what you experienced is the exception, not the norm. Are there others out there that have had problems? Sure. But anything can have a problem. But, that being said, I also understand that it's hard to argue (using that term lightly) against personal experience. I promise I won't keep harping on this - in the end, we all need to make a decision that we feel is the best for us.

My Sundancer is about 10K gross, sitting on a 8K load capacity trailer. When fully loaded, I'm within a few hundred pounds of 10K. I trailer it ALOT and never hesitate to back it around tightly - I've had owners of little 18-footers come over and ask how a 35' long trailer can get into some of the spots I put it. It's a 14 year old ShoreLand'r trailer. The only thing I've done to it is upgrade to discs and LEDs, and change from rollers to bunks.

 

[DennisG01]

Couple of other thoughts... Is the EZ Loader your current trailer? When you mentioned "sagging bunks"... if it has/had 2x6 bunks, that is normal and is the way it is designed to work (if it's the type of sagging I'm thinking of). Hull bottoms are not completely flat, so the 2x6's, mounted horizontally, will take on the shape of the hull. Have you ever looked closely at a trailer's bunks where the boards are mounted vertically? There is not as much contact between the hull and board. That's not to say that there's anything wrong with that, though. As long as the boards are in the right place, there will be enough support.

What exactly is happening with the steep ramp loading? Is the stern of the boat swinging off? Just thinking that maybe some adjustments/mods can be made to the trailer to avoid you having to buy a new trailer that may or may not solve the steep ramp problem.

 

[family affair]

No, it is not my current trailer.
Sagging was the wrong term. Creeping down would be a better description.
The trailer I have now is a roller trailer. Works great at shallow ramps but is a bear with steep ramps. The pulpit hits the winch stand when launching and recovering. It is not a cheap or easy fix. Getting all of the rollers to align is no picnic either. Worst of all I think it is a major safety issue on steep ramps. IMO an accident waiting to happen. Bunk trailers we have owned previously were significantly easier to work with than the current trailer.

Went and looked at the trailer today. The marina listed the trailer incorrectly. The capacity is actually 8k not 8500 lbs. I talked to several reputable Grady dealers and all advised the trailer would be a great fit for the Voyager. I made an offer and the owner is thinking it over.

Tick-tock, Tick-tock!

 

[DennisG01]

Good luck, I hope it works out for you. Not to put down other dealers, but many won't know the issues with using too heavy of a trailer. But again, I hope it all works out for you.

I've run into the exact same type of problem you have when loading on steep ramps with my Sundancer (with a windlass, anchor roller). The thing is, it's not so much about the roller vs bunk as it is simply an "angle issue". The boat is floating at too much an angle to the trailer. And this will change from one boat to another due to bow design.

Can you just cut a section of the winch post off?

If that won't work, then just stop winching the boat in when it gets close to the winch post and then pull the trailer out of the water a little bit and winch some more. If you put on a set of guide poles, that will keep the aft end of the boat from swinging. I do this (I have yet to install guide poles, although they would help) with my 8,000lb Sundancer and just a two-speed hand winch. If I had a power winch, it would be a snap. On these steep ramps, I just can't power load as far.