Why wood still?

[sharkbait]

I am looking into a Bimini 306 and my main concern are the wood in the boat....I am guessing in the stringers and transom mostly. Why wood when there are many composite alternatives? Contender and Yellowfin use all compsite materials I believe....why not grady? I have heard the salesman speeches on the benefits of wood, but it seems like a lot of care and worry has to go into "keeping the wood dry" so to speak. And what about the stringers and transom...doesn't Grady warranty these for life? Does the warranty cover the deck wood that was mentioned in previous posts? Isn't the wood encapsulated in fiberglass...so how do you replace just the wood? I know that Grady usually means quality, but I guess my fears need some answers, since boats are costing more and more, and I don't want my boat rotting out from under me. The salesman says that the wood is the highest marine grade available, and it should last a lifetime....what is everyone's opinion? :wink:

thanks, and hope to be a Grady Owner one day,

 

[capt chris]

I would do two things to put your mind at ease.
1. Call customer service at the factory and express your concerns. Let them answer your questions and explain their rationale.
2. Since you live so close to the factory, go to Greenville and take a tour of the plant. They welcome visitors and would love to show you around. I think if you are still bothered by the use of wood after those two things I would move on to another manufacturer.
You're the one who has to be satisfied. It's your money and your investment.

 

[gw204]

There's nothing wrong with using wood in a boat...as long as it's done correctly and cared for properly. The worst thing that can happen to a wood cored boat is to get in the hands of a lazy owner.

FYI - Regulator, Parker, Carolina Classic, Albemarle, etc. all still use wood.

 

[gradyfish22]

To go to another material means new techniques to be used, and the end result has been greater cost in the overall product, Grady's are not cheap to begin with. Wood in a boat is not a problem, it is when a boat is not properly maintanined where issues arise, 9 times out of 10, when a problem arises with wood in a boat it was the owner's fault because they did not know how to properly maintain parts of the boat. Yes there can be instances where the builder messed up, but the process is monitored and that is not really the case anymore. Wood has been used for years and is not really the issue, it is more the deck fittings, fasteners and such and how well they are maintained, forget to attend to them and water will seep no matter how well the job was done. This does not mean it is inferior, there are tons of big boat builders who still use wood stringers, transoms and what about all the cold mold wood builders. Cold Mold wood boats are very reliable and are built to high quality, if wood was so bad they would not still be around. Grady has contemplated switching to other materials but stands firmly in their products and has not found a product better then wood with enough reason to switch, it has been reliable to them.

 

[whitey]

my boat has had a problem with rotting in the wood.the transom was replaced,the seperating bulkheads were replaced when the fuel tanks were replaced.the deck pieces were also repaired,due to rotting.wood when it gets wet rots.i'm a builder,same thing happens in a house.the shop that repaired my boat showed me how the factory didn't protect the wood by glassing over it.i couldn't believe the amount of unprotected wood in that boat.my insurance company required me to have the boat surveyed again,the surveyor made the claim our boats are known for rotting.funny thing about this was the shop that did the repairs,made the same claim.

 

[BobP]

Good subject !


Good points !

 

[gradyfish22]

Whitey, how old was your boat? I know Grady's are known for some rot problems, among other boat brands, but most problems are with decks and transoms, a smaller portion have bulkhead and stringer problems. Were you the original owner or did someone own it before you, really wish the repair yard had an idea of what caused it when they opened the boat up, because most do not have bulkhead issues, some have stringer issues where glass was not thick enough, or had cracked. I'd be nice to have an idea what caused all that so we can all try and prevent it, doesn't seem like normal wear unless something at thew factory was done wrong on your boat or they had changed protocol for layup on those parts.

 

[Grog]

Aside from the rotting issue, wood is a great material for boat building. It's ability to repeatively bend and it' stength/weight is hard to beat. Dry wood doesn't rot.

 

[Brad1]

I can't say why Grady White has chosen to still use wood.

Here's what I do know.

Numerous reputable boat builders still use wood.

The wood in my 2003 Grady White is warranted for life by the manufactorer of the wood, Greenwood Forest Products Inc. For the original owner, the warranty covers the replacement wood, labor, and associated materials (ie. fiberglass, sealants, etc.) for the 1st 10 years of the warranty. After the 1st 10 years, the associated materials are not covered (only the wood and the labor). The warranty is transferrable, but the terms do changes for the 2nd owner (I can't remember exactly what they are for the 2nd owner as I am only concerned with the terms for the original owner since that's what I currently am for my boat). The warrantied wood in my Grady White boat is used in the transom, stringers, floor, and deck cap. The formica laminated wood used to form the cuddy wall, as well as the lids on the storage areas in the berth, is not warrantied.

Here's what I've experienced.

Prior to my Grady White, I was convinced that wood free was the way to go. I sold my '94 Proline which had wood coring in the stringers, transom, floor and deck cap (I didn't like the layout or ride of the boat anyway). The next boat I bought (before I bought my Grady White) was wood free. What can go wrong (or so I thought). Brand new boat. Drilled into the transom to install transducer mounting plate and out comes water. And no, I did not drill through to the bilge. This water was inside the transom. Called the manufactorer, they said no problem because the composite transom can't rot. I said problem, because the composite transom will freeze when I store the boat outside in the winter. They tried to fix it, but couldn't (not the boat's fault, but a lousy incompetent fiberglass guy that didn't remove the water before trying to fill the void. He actually pressurized the water). That's about all I'm allowed to say about that boat. So I go and buy my Grady White. That same year, my brother buys a Scout 185. Sweet boat (or so it seemed). Buys it in Florida, sea trials it and runs it a couple times in salt water, then brings it home to PA. Goes to install a transducer. Out comes alot of water. As in gallons. The water is fresh water, but it had only been in salt water and never ran it in fresh water (so it must be rain water). We look, but we can't find how the water's getting in. He works for the gas company. After he drained the water out of the transom, he puts a little natural gas into the hole where the water came out (low pressure I might add). He uses a tool called a sniffer which detects natural gas. Well the natural gas he put into the hole in the transom, is coming out everywhere. Even the pop up cleats near the bow. So somehow, when it rains, water is making it under the floor, traveling along a passage way (probably along the outside edge of a stringer that doesn't have a limber hole) and into a non-encapsulated area of the transom. Manufactorer says it's not a warranty issue until freezing causes delamination. Not wanting that to happen and not getting any help from the manufactorer otherwise, he ended up having to incorporate a drain hole to drain the water out of his transom. Yes, it still fills up with water, though even when he uses the boat in saltwater, out comes fresh water. Bizzare and has left my Brother disappointed. So my point is, just because a boat does not use wood, doesn't mean it's not capable of having water intrusion problems. Only that rot will not be one of the problems. Hopefully the rot free wood in a grady white is what it's cracked up to be and it won't rot either should it happen to get wet.

Buy an aluminum boat and you can experience electrolysis. Buy a woodfree boat and you can still experience water intrusion problems, or problems of another nature. Buy a glass boat with wood coring and you can encounter problems as well. What are you going to do? Maybe someday, someone will develop the perfect boat. But until then, I'm running a boat that has the beat layout, ride, and customer support in the class I prefer (that being 20 to 23 ft walkarounds). If my transom rots out of my Grady White in 20 years, I'll just have to replace it.

 

[jbukie]

Are there benefits to using wood vs composite?

 

[gradyfish22]

Cost big time, composites are much more expensive then wood. The overall cost to go to a composite would increase a Grady Whites overall cost by probably 10%+. Not only is the material more expensive, but the process to lay it up requires training, more money, and there are more materials and equipment involved in using composites, even more added to the overall price. To make a change, the gain would need to be either significant, or a must do because of repeated series issues. I do not feel using wood is a serious issue. Also, as you can see from two posts ago, other companies are having problems with lay up issues, probably insufficient training or quality assurance, going to a new technique may present these problems in a Grady. I'd rather buy a boat knowing what the potential issues down the road could be, and prevent them the best I can, then not have a clue what could go wrong and have the boat fall apart beneath me. I looked into going to a new hull laminate schedule and material for a company, on their boats it would have added 15%+ to the overall cost, not including the new equipment and down time they would need to implement the new material and its construction, to them it wasn't worth it. They knew that there would possibly be a time in the future where they will go to this, but by then the cost will come down a little and more about the process will be known. I think Grady will change their materials someday down the road, but not until it is a sure thing and where they feel they are giving you a product that they are certain of.

 

[whitey]

my boat is a '90 trophy pro. this all began with a fuel odor in the boat.i called a local repair shop ,the boat was checked out and the fuel tanks were the cause of the fuel odor,the main tank. the repair shop,claimed the bulkheads are usually bad,this is discovered when the tanks are replaced.i saw the bulkheads when the tanks were pulled,these were just bare wood.
the repair shop performed a full inspection of the boat,including a moisture test.this is how the transom problem was discovered.i seen the rotted coring,not a very pretty sight.
the shop that performed the work,claimed these are "problem areas" on our boats,i had no reason to doubt him.the surveyor backed up what the repair shop said concerning the rotting problems.i spent big money on these repairs.and i'm the original owner of the boat,it's been very well taken care of.

 

[gradyfish22]

Whitey, sorry to hear about all the problems, I know these can all be problem issues, just haven't heard much about bulkheads, usually transom, deck, and then some stringer issues. Glad you got them fixed even though it probably hurt the wallet, now you will hopefully have a problem free boat for years to come. I wish Grady would record where problems arise from from guys like you and others who have had the work redone, problems can often be traced to a hose or layup issue or even a poor drain location, data like this is super valuable and could help them to design and build a far superior boat then anything else out there. Very rarely does anyone complain about the layout, finish or ride of a Grady, adding top notch hull structure would likely make them number one hands down.

 

[wilson]

wood encapsulated in epoxy resin and cloth will enjoy a very long life. when the tops of the bulkheads are not glassed and sealed under the floor the end of the plywood acts like a sponge. when the factory drills the drain hole and smears calking in the hole with a finger.....when the tow eyes are drilled and not epoxy coated ( that's the brown "rust" stain you see, that's not a rust stain it's tanic acid..rotting wood)....when the factory shoots wood lag bolts to mount the trim tabs thu the glass without a predrilling and of course not using epoxy....see where i'm going with this. post, davis,paul mann...these boats are top shelf in their class...just like grady is in it's class, i wonder how they seal their thru hull holes?

 

[RUMBLEFISH]

I sure wish GW was aware of the problems of using cheap aluminum brackets to cover over the transom rather then glass them in. Or using scraps of balsa for the deck floor panels that failed. Or the problems with the tank layout or even using cheap plastic thru hulls. Or electircal that under the dash looked like a birds nest. Hey I love my girl but these are things that many in the 80 and early 90 have seen or will see. I know they have changed things around over the years and I'm sure its due to past complaints that made them step up to the plate and do it right.

 

[Brad1]

Cost big time, composites are much more expensive then wood.

I doubt that. Think about it. How many other brands have made the switched from wood to non-wood. Proline, Trophy, Hydra sports (lightning series), etc. etc. These are not expensive brands of boats.

I had a chance to get a peak under the deck of a so-called mid-tier boat that was 100% wood free. It is readily apparent what's they're doing. They lay up the hull in the mold. Then they take a pre-cast foam piece that forms the entire stringer system, and they lay that in the hull. This piece of foam is nothing more than a form for laying glass over. They glass over the stringer system, then throw some gobs of adhesive (bright pink stuff) on top of the glassed over stringers, then drop the top piece (of a two piece boat) down on top of the hull with the globs of adhesive. For lack of a better way of describing it, the globs of adhesive just "smoosh" between the top of the stringers, and the bottom of the floor. I think there may even be companys out there that are making the foam one piece stringer systems pre-fab that the boat manufactorers purchase from. Think about it. Even if it didn't fit perfectly, how hard is it to trim foam? Ah, but the builders using this method are doing it under the guise of "No Wood", rot free boat. Meanwhile, that's just an advertising benefit to being able to mass produce boats more at less cost. Again, think about the brands of boats that are wood free, with foam stringer systems (I'll even bet Sea Fox is another brand doing this), then think about the ones that are still using wood.

Compare that to what Grady does. Grady uses a high grade lumber product. Then they have to custom cut each piece. Stringers, bulkheads, transoms, deck coring. I would bet the route Grady White uses is much more labor intensive. Now, the problem is, are they doing all they can to encapsulte every bit of that wood? I mean doing it right. There's some debate on that one, and whitey has a boat that they apparently missed some spots altogether.

Here's one more benefit of wood. Strength. Read some boating magazines in which they review large power boats that have large I/O power. Some of them use wood free stringers, EXCEPT, where the engines mount. The use wood for the stringers in that area. Why, because it's stronger.

 

[gw204]

Cost big time, composites are much more expensive then wood.

I doubt that. Think about it. How many other brands have made the switched from wood to non-wood. Proline, Trophy, Hydra sports (lightning series), etc. etc. These are not expensive brands of boats.

He's exactly right. A 4' x 8' sheet of 3/4" Coosa Bluewater 26 is roughly 2.5 times as expensive as the same size sheet of marine ply.

 

[Frank]

Wood is heavier, so Grady doesn't use wood stringers in the 33 (and the 36, I think). Some have suggested that Grady doesn't switch because they are doing just fine with wood and changing tooling and production methods would be costly. New manufacturers without an investment in tooling or those wanting to use "no wood" as a marketing tool may find it makes sense not to use wood or invest in changing over to no wood.

As others have stated, wood is an excellent material for boats. It is strong, absorbs shock, deadens sound, etc. Add Pursuit and Boston Whaler to the list of high quality boats with wood in them.

Bulkheads are known for rotten wood in addition to stringers, transoms, and decks. You need a good survey when buying used.

 

[ocnslr]

Here's one more benefit of wood. Strength. Read some boating magazines in which they review large power boats that have large I/O power. Some of them use wood free stringers, EXCEPT, where the engines mount. The use wood for the stringers in that area. Why, because it's stronger.

Well, there is actually another reason.

The foam in a foam stringer provides no strength. It simply serves as the filler in a fiberglass "box beam" structure. Nothing wrong with that structurally.

However, it really is just a glass and foam sandwich, so it doesn't do well with bolting things to it - like engine mounts.... and bolting through a foam-filled stringer from side to side tends to crush the structure. Hence the need to have something inside the stringer that does a bit better - LIKE WOOD.

Brian

 

[Brad1]

Cost big time, composites are much more expensive then wood.

I doubt that. Think about it. How many other brands have made the switched from wood to non-wood. Proline, Trophy, Hydra sports (lightning series), etc. etc. These are not expensive brands of boats.

He's exactly right. A 4' x 8' sheet of 3/4" Coosa Bluewater 26 is roughly 2.5 times as expensive as the same size sheet of marine ply.

Maybe Coosa is more expensive, but I don't believe that is what's being used in the foam box stringer systems of many of the mass produced boats being made today. Just a closed cell foam. Maybe their using Coosa in the transom. Proline does not though. They use something called Dyvinicell (I might have mis-spelled the name on that).