I remember reading some posts here before about Yamaha V6 lower engine pan corrosion. The new literature I picked up Saturday at the Ocean City MD. boat show states that the pans are made of a composite material. Is this a change that was made lately or are only certain models made that way?
Yamaha F225 & F250
- Thread starter dadsgirl
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Parthery
GreatGrady Captain
The problem motors are F225s... 2002-2004. Yamaha made the change in 2005. F250 were introduced after and did not have the issues.
Gman25
GreatGrady Captain
My 2005 F250's had the corrosion issues.You might want to have them scoped. If the engines fail it will cause more damage so you might want to have the work done before it happens.
Have to disagree with the 2002-2004 time frame and Yamaha Taking care of it in 2005. Have a 2005 F-225 ..185 hrs. and it was starting! Have seen 2006's also,along with some F-150's !
In general - the first generation F series of V6 engines are more susceptible. But no engine is exempt from the dry exhaust corrosion. The key thing is to have it checked periodically. No rhyme or reason to it - like Cancer - some get it, some don't...
Fishtales
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Hi,
Just had my 2005 F250s torn down and all the parts replaced. For this guy it is a good news / bad news story.
Some notes:
1.) I found scope pictures as well as pictures from my phone to exaggerate the damage. Not sure if it is the flash or what, but the pics just look far worse than the naked eye. When torn down, the plates and exhaust tubes really looked much better than I expected. While there was minor salt build up spots, really no damage to any of the parts that I could see. Good news I guess. I will try to post the pics. Stay tuned.
2.) My dealer ordered all the parts (kit plus others) and since having them in-hand and one engine torn down (had to do that one), we might as well do the other. If I had known the actual condition, I likely would not have replaced all these parts. Bad news. I ended up doing all the extras (speedy cranks, anodes, thermostats & water pump, oil pump) that was recommended by folks that already went through this.
3.) Tilt/trim pistons on one engine were scored. Water got into the hydraulic fluid. So they need to be changed as well. The only thing I noticed was that the engine was a bit slower than the other to raise, maybe due to the water in the fluid? Good news that the housing is part of the cast piece that mounts the engine to the boat. If this got damaged, it would have added more cost to replace this as well.
4.) The concentration of salt in the water appears to be a major driver to the corrosion issue. I was told Yamaha has a heat map of issues and the vast majority of the problems are in warm water locations. The map has most of the issues down south and the concentration of issues reduces as you move up the NE coast. This problem seems to be more prevalent with engines run in warmer water (salt concentration/hot exhaust gas mixture?).
5.) I slip the boat, I freshwater rinse after every use. Some say this does nothing, others not so sure. I plan to continue the practice although I have no data to disprove or support the claim that it helps, but it is recommended.
6.) I was told the coating process changed in 2005. Not sure if this is a factor.
7.) Dealer indicates only a handful of owners have done the repair at his shop. All except one were F225s and they did see more corrosion on the earlier vintage motors. One had a hole right through the exhaust tube and one a hole that allowed corrosion to occur in the power head. Both replaced and still running today.
So, I have all new parts in both engines as well as others that were preventative since we were in that deep, why not do them. We caught the trim/tilt issue. Final bill has yet to be tallied, but it likely will be in the $8K range for all work. A small win, the boat was stored in side in heated area while we were getting pasted with all this snow.
Just had my 2005 F250s torn down and all the parts replaced. For this guy it is a good news / bad news story.
Some notes:
1.) I found scope pictures as well as pictures from my phone to exaggerate the damage. Not sure if it is the flash or what, but the pics just look far worse than the naked eye. When torn down, the plates and exhaust tubes really looked much better than I expected. While there was minor salt build up spots, really no damage to any of the parts that I could see. Good news I guess. I will try to post the pics. Stay tuned.
2.) My dealer ordered all the parts (kit plus others) and since having them in-hand and one engine torn down (had to do that one), we might as well do the other. If I had known the actual condition, I likely would not have replaced all these parts. Bad news. I ended up doing all the extras (speedy cranks, anodes, thermostats & water pump, oil pump) that was recommended by folks that already went through this.
3.) Tilt/trim pistons on one engine were scored. Water got into the hydraulic fluid. So they need to be changed as well. The only thing I noticed was that the engine was a bit slower than the other to raise, maybe due to the water in the fluid? Good news that the housing is part of the cast piece that mounts the engine to the boat. If this got damaged, it would have added more cost to replace this as well.
4.) The concentration of salt in the water appears to be a major driver to the corrosion issue. I was told Yamaha has a heat map of issues and the vast majority of the problems are in warm water locations. The map has most of the issues down south and the concentration of issues reduces as you move up the NE coast. This problem seems to be more prevalent with engines run in warmer water (salt concentration/hot exhaust gas mixture?).
5.) I slip the boat, I freshwater rinse after every use. Some say this does nothing, others not so sure. I plan to continue the practice although I have no data to disprove or support the claim that it helps, but it is recommended.
6.) I was told the coating process changed in 2005. Not sure if this is a factor.
7.) Dealer indicates only a handful of owners have done the repair at his shop. All except one were F225s and they did see more corrosion on the earlier vintage motors. One had a hole right through the exhaust tube and one a hole that allowed corrosion to occur in the power head. Both replaced and still running today.
So, I have all new parts in both engines as well as others that were preventative since we were in that deep, why not do them. We caught the trim/tilt issue. Final bill has yet to be tallied, but it likely will be in the $8K range for all work. A small win, the boat was stored in side in heated area while we were getting pasted with all this snow.
I have to disagree. Yes, not flushing after use can accelerate corrosion, but the problems with the early F series motors was not what one would expect. Take a look at the zillions of earlier SX motors that are still running and you won't find the exhaust corrosion issues. The fact that Yamaha reformulated the alloys used for the housings and oil pans as well as their offer to sell rebuild kits for $600 instead of the original cost of about $2200+ is proof enough that there was an issue. Is there still an issue? Only time will tell. I have see first hand the corrosion of the oil pans. Scoping may or may not detect the internal oil pan issue and that is the one that can cause catastrophic failure when water leaks into the oil.HMBJack said:
I would imagine that Yamaha has spent and continues to spend time and effort on 'improving' their reliability but in my mind, I would consider any F series 225/250 motors before 2007 model year.
Definitely not limited to the F225. My 06 F250 failed last summer. I ended up replacing both engines.
Wish I hadn't been told the issue was only for the 225. I didn't have my motors checked before I bought the boat, since I was told the 250 were "bullet proof". Guess there isn't such an engine made.
Wish I hadn't been told the issue was only for the 225. I didn't have my motors checked before I bought the boat, since I was told the 250 were "bullet proof". Guess there isn't such an engine made.
Seasick,
I don't want to stir it up but I don't know what you disagree with.
I'm saying ALL of the V6 four strokes are susceptible and there is no definitive pattern to the dry exhaust corrosion - which by the way - has nothing to do with flushing freshwater after use.
Look at the post above - here's a guy with a newer engine who had the problem. In a few years, you might be saying " I wouldn't buy anything before a 2010 model year".
Face it Yamaha screwed up on this and if you own a V6, you are not exempt.
When I re-power, I'm going to look hard at Honda. Just sayin...
I don't want to stir it up but I don't know what you disagree with.
I'm saying ALL of the V6 four strokes are susceptible and there is no definitive pattern to the dry exhaust corrosion - which by the way - has nothing to do with flushing freshwater after use.
Look at the post above - here's a guy with a newer engine who had the problem. In a few years, you might be saying " I wouldn't buy anything before a 2010 model year".
Face it Yamaha screwed up on this and if you own a V6, you are not exempt.
When I re-power, I'm going to look hard at Honda. Just sayin...
There is an ongoing class action lawsuit against Yamaha on this subject. This has been a problem for quite a while and there are many posts on the subject. If you have had the damage, you may still get in on the suit. the law firm pursuing it is
THE HAYES LAW FIRM, PC
700 Rockmead, Suite 210
Kingwood, TX 77339
Telephone: (281) 815-4963
the contact is Wajih Rahman <wrahman@dhayeslaw.com>
good luck
THE HAYES LAW FIRM, PC
700 Rockmead, Suite 210
Kingwood, TX 77339
Telephone: (281) 815-4963
the contact is Wajih Rahman <wrahman@dhayeslaw.com>
good luck
HMBJack said:
I get your point. I was responding to your statement "But no engine is exempt from the dry exhaust corrosion" . I took that to include the 2 stroke models which in my experience have not had corrosion issues.
You are also correct about the comment that in a few years we might be saying the same thing about the newer models.
What is known is that Yamaha did change the alloys used for the pan and exhaust housings. Whether or not that is a final cure has yet to be seen.
The comment about flushing was due to feedback from of the mechanic we use who told me that poor flushing contributes to the corrosion but more importantly, cold flushing doesn't work well. I can confirm his statement but he has worked on hundreds of motors. His recommendation which is contrary to Yamaha's, is that you should flush using the flush port but with the motor running(and therefore warm.
Honestly, I don't know what the exact reason is for the corrosion nor can I explain why some motors have the problem and others of the same year do not. I would bet that Yamaha knows what the cause is but won't tell since that would be ammunition to any current or future legal actions. As to the model years in question, a 2007 motor may well have been manufactured in 2006. I do not know any way to tell whether a specific motor was built with the new or old exhaust components. It does seem that the problem is less frequent on 2007s and newer but as you mention, I have heard of issues with later year 225s and 250s as well as mentions of issues with 300s.
Thanks for keeping me honest
Yep. No worries. We are all dumbfounded by this corrosion thing.
I sometimes wish I had 2 strokes. They are simple, bulletproof and with all that oil in dry exhaust channels, there's no way they will ever have corrosion!
If or when my F250's get it - I'll just get them fixed - hopefully in the off season. For now, I'm keeping my fingers crossed and not fretting about it.
I sometimes wish I had 2 strokes. They are simple, bulletproof and with all that oil in dry exhaust channels, there's no way they will ever have corrosion!
If or when my F250's get it - I'll just get them fixed - hopefully in the off season. For now, I'm keeping my fingers crossed and not fretting about it.
Hi Fishtales,
I think you made the right, and conservative, decision to have the engines re-built following the corrosion inspection. I have a pair of F250's (~875 hours now) manufactured in mid 2005 and I operate my boat in the cold waters off San Francisco.
Questions:
Are you in a warm water climate? and
Were your engines manufactured in 2004 or 2005?
Consistent with your notes, I was told directly by Yamaha that the new coatings were applied to all F250's in 2005 so the guy told me "I am safe". Curious what you think about that now having done the job.
Also, for comparison, I posted photos of my engines lower unit "legs" under your post from last year (May 2014). Curious of your opinion and recommendation to me of my Vs. your F250's. I fully expect to the same job as you in the off-season (hopefully) in the next year or two or three (?).
I'll bet you're happy the job is over and it's now one less thing to fret about.
Thanks in advance for your advice and answers to the above questions. Sincerely, Jack
I think you made the right, and conservative, decision to have the engines re-built following the corrosion inspection. I have a pair of F250's (~875 hours now) manufactured in mid 2005 and I operate my boat in the cold waters off San Francisco.
Questions:
Are you in a warm water climate? and
Were your engines manufactured in 2004 or 2005?
Consistent with your notes, I was told directly by Yamaha that the new coatings were applied to all F250's in 2005 so the guy told me "I am safe". Curious what you think about that now having done the job.
Also, for comparison, I posted photos of my engines lower unit "legs" under your post from last year (May 2014). Curious of your opinion and recommendation to me of my Vs. your F250's. I fully expect to the same job as you in the off-season (hopefully) in the next year or two or three (?).
I'll bet you're happy the job is over and it's now one less thing to fret about.
Thanks in advance for your advice and answers to the above questions. Sincerely, Jack
Fishtales
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Hi,
I run in cold water for the most part - Massachusetts bay.
You can have your engines scoped every year, they drop the lower unit and look inside. Tough to assess on the pictures for me. To me, he damage looks worse but at least you can get an idea. The motors are both 2005 year of manufacture off the sticker on the engine mount.
The engines have been perfect other than this. I have the dealer do all the maintenance each year per schedule. Never a hiccup or any type of performance problem.
My dealer thought they were ok from the last scope. They did indicated some corrosion was there. All the threads out there on this topic and potential to take the motors out swayed me to be proactive. Maybe too much so. In the end, I chose to do it, the dealer did not push me at all. Probably the other way around....
Good news bad news I guess. I'm glad the engines were not damaged, but I probably could have waited or maybe never done the fix - really just don't know.
Some say once the salt corrosion starts, the coating is compromised and further corrosion happens at a faster rate. Others say it is surface corrosion only. One thing for sure, if it is surface corrosion it does devolve into a worse condition. I just don't know how fast it happens.
The only surprise were the (3) SS pins that lift the engine out of the water as well as trim it up when running on one engine had some pitting. The lower two I understand should be re-tracted fully per user manual when on the slip which I never did. The middle one is always out of the water so I don't know how this one could have been corroded. Leads me to believe that re-tracting doesn't really help. Who knows....
Like my tag line - after owning a boat, almost everything in life is reasonable. I'm willing to pay to be out on the water - nothing else compares to it.
Good luck with your engines!
I run in cold water for the most part - Massachusetts bay.
You can have your engines scoped every year, they drop the lower unit and look inside. Tough to assess on the pictures for me. To me, he damage looks worse but at least you can get an idea. The motors are both 2005 year of manufacture off the sticker on the engine mount.
The engines have been perfect other than this. I have the dealer do all the maintenance each year per schedule. Never a hiccup or any type of performance problem.
My dealer thought they were ok from the last scope. They did indicated some corrosion was there. All the threads out there on this topic and potential to take the motors out swayed me to be proactive. Maybe too much so. In the end, I chose to do it, the dealer did not push me at all. Probably the other way around....
Good news bad news I guess. I'm glad the engines were not damaged, but I probably could have waited or maybe never done the fix - really just don't know.
Some say once the salt corrosion starts, the coating is compromised and further corrosion happens at a faster rate. Others say it is surface corrosion only. One thing for sure, if it is surface corrosion it does devolve into a worse condition. I just don't know how fast it happens.
The only surprise were the (3) SS pins that lift the engine out of the water as well as trim it up when running on one engine had some pitting. The lower two I understand should be re-tracted fully per user manual when on the slip which I never did. The middle one is always out of the water so I don't know how this one could have been corroded. Leads me to believe that re-tracting doesn't really help. Who knows....
Like my tag line - after owning a boat, almost everything in life is reasonable. I'm willing to pay to be out on the water - nothing else compares to it.
Good luck with your engines!
Thank-you! I agree with your logic and great attitude Fishtales! Enjoy this year on the water...