I have narrowed my search for my next boat down to 2 282's. One is a 2001 with twin Yamaha 200 HDPI engines (170hrs) and the other is a 2002 with twin Yamaha 225 4 strokes (300 hrs). Both boats are comparable in price. Please comment....
282 HDPI vs 4 Stroke
- Thread starter dmcneane
- Start date
I own boats with both engines. Love the HPDI's, but the four strokes are the way to go IMHO I'll give you the up's and down's or each and you decide what suits you best:
HPDI:
Highs
Faster, more economical at cruise speeds, faster cruise speed, lighter, more hole shot
Lows
Burns a good amount of oil, smokes a little(not as much as some other 2 strokes but it will still smoke a little), is louder then a 4 stroke, burns more fuel at slower speeds-especially trolling speeds, are older technology compared to 4 strokes, needs to have ring-free used with fill-ups and that stuff is not cheap
4 Stroke:
Highs
Quiet, smoke-free, NO OIL, new technology, better economy at trolling speeds
Lows
Not as high top end, cruise is slightly lower, slightly less fuel efficient at cruise
At mid range cruise speeds these engines are very comparable. From talking with multiple Yamaha techs, They all stated that 4 strokes are going more hours before rebuilds then any 2 strokes. This is under the assumption that the engines had proper maintenance at the correct intervals. They made this observation from Sea Tow, Boat US and Coast Guard boats that put tons of hours on their engines in a short amount of time. The techs said we will probably not see the same hours they do since we run out boats differently but it gives you an idea of what you should expect. They claimed the HPDI will last over 2000hours, up to 2000 before a rebuild. They claim 4 strokes are over 3000. Not sure how these numbers will apply to a normal user, I have a feeling they will be slightly lower but it really depends how hard the engines are ran and if proper maintenance was performed.
If range is a huge factor to you and getting another 15-20nm out of the boat is important, I'd consider the HPDI, otherwise if they are similar in pricing I would go for the 4 stroke. Not having to worry about oil all the time is a plus, the quieter sound of the 4 strokes is a plus as well. Operating costs will probably be similar for both engines, the HPDI will burn enough fuel to make up for what it saved in gas, and maybe then some.
I think one of the most important factor for you should also be to check the records on each boat and engine to make sure proper maintenance was performed. Make sure engines were tuned at the proper hour interval, I believe 150 or 200hours(not positive hopefully someone else can help, if not I can check my owner's manuals but I cannot get to them until Friday). Since those boats have low hours, then tune ups should be done roughly every 2 seasons IMHO. They may not be at the proper hour intervals, but those boats are getting below avg usage and sitting around a bit which is not always good either, that is why I encourage a tune at a sooner hour interval. Hope this helps you out!! Any other questions pm me. Good luck!!! Get the Grady!!
Tom
HPDI:
Highs
Faster, more economical at cruise speeds, faster cruise speed, lighter, more hole shot
Lows
Burns a good amount of oil, smokes a little(not as much as some other 2 strokes but it will still smoke a little), is louder then a 4 stroke, burns more fuel at slower speeds-especially trolling speeds, are older technology compared to 4 strokes, needs to have ring-free used with fill-ups and that stuff is not cheap
4 Stroke:
Highs
Quiet, smoke-free, NO OIL, new technology, better economy at trolling speeds
Lows
Not as high top end, cruise is slightly lower, slightly less fuel efficient at cruise
At mid range cruise speeds these engines are very comparable. From talking with multiple Yamaha techs, They all stated that 4 strokes are going more hours before rebuilds then any 2 strokes. This is under the assumption that the engines had proper maintenance at the correct intervals. They made this observation from Sea Tow, Boat US and Coast Guard boats that put tons of hours on their engines in a short amount of time. The techs said we will probably not see the same hours they do since we run out boats differently but it gives you an idea of what you should expect. They claimed the HPDI will last over 2000hours, up to 2000 before a rebuild. They claim 4 strokes are over 3000. Not sure how these numbers will apply to a normal user, I have a feeling they will be slightly lower but it really depends how hard the engines are ran and if proper maintenance was performed.
If range is a huge factor to you and getting another 15-20nm out of the boat is important, I'd consider the HPDI, otherwise if they are similar in pricing I would go for the 4 stroke. Not having to worry about oil all the time is a plus, the quieter sound of the 4 strokes is a plus as well. Operating costs will probably be similar for both engines, the HPDI will burn enough fuel to make up for what it saved in gas, and maybe then some.
I think one of the most important factor for you should also be to check the records on each boat and engine to make sure proper maintenance was performed. Make sure engines were tuned at the proper hour interval, I believe 150 or 200hours(not positive hopefully someone else can help, if not I can check my owner's manuals but I cannot get to them until Friday). Since those boats have low hours, then tune ups should be done roughly every 2 seasons IMHO. They may not be at the proper hour intervals, but those boats are getting below avg usage and sitting around a bit which is not always good either, that is why I encourage a tune at a sooner hour interval. Hope this helps you out!! Any other questions pm me. Good luck!!! Get the Grady!!
Tom
I don't know about all that noise, yes, when the 4 stroker is idling in the marina it's very quiet - just hear the water outlet peeing, but up at speed the 4 stroke is making a racket with it's valve train and higher RPM.
With both my HPDI engines idling at the dock, they are still quieter than the old Johnnies, we could stand next to them and talk normally.
You didn't mention 4 stroke oil/filter changes, engines "making oil" phenomena, oil leaking out of the engine into the boat when in full tilt, and an off idle gear lash that sounds like rattling, these are strickly 4 stroke issues - and for Yamaha V6s as I recall - read about them at THT.
I hear changing 4 stroke oil and filter at the marina is $125 or more, of course cheaper for DIYers.
As for new technolgy, it's a fuel injected car engine, and behind the times at that. Car engines are going direct injection, electronic fuel injection has been around since the 70's. And wide ranging variable valve timing to entirely eliminate the need for a throttle (Infiniti G37). That's new technology. Even Honda says it's VTEC is from the car market.
With respect to emissions, most 4 strokers are 3 star CARB rating, the HPDIs are not as good with 2 Star CARB.
The two 4 strokers add over 200 lbs total to the 282s transom.
Grady's performance specs for the Sailfish 282 with HPDIs vs. F225 was very close, the HPDIs were slightly better in mpg - taking the crown.
With both my HPDI engines idling at the dock, they are still quieter than the old Johnnies, we could stand next to them and talk normally.
You didn't mention 4 stroke oil/filter changes, engines "making oil" phenomena, oil leaking out of the engine into the boat when in full tilt, and an off idle gear lash that sounds like rattling, these are strickly 4 stroke issues - and for Yamaha V6s as I recall - read about them at THT.
I hear changing 4 stroke oil and filter at the marina is $125 or more, of course cheaper for DIYers.
As for new technolgy, it's a fuel injected car engine, and behind the times at that. Car engines are going direct injection, electronic fuel injection has been around since the 70's. And wide ranging variable valve timing to entirely eliminate the need for a throttle (Infiniti G37). That's new technology. Even Honda says it's VTEC is from the car market.
With respect to emissions, most 4 strokers are 3 star CARB rating, the HPDIs are not as good with 2 Star CARB.
The two 4 strokers add over 200 lbs total to the 282s transom.
Grady's performance specs for the Sailfish 282 with HPDIs vs. F225 was very close, the HPDIs were slightly better in mpg - taking the crown.
Brian, is it true Merc came out with two new modle Optis, a 250 and 175?
And Yamaha just released the next generation VMAX big block HPDIs?
And Yamaha just released the next generation VMAX big block HPDIs?
You must be talking about the new XS model Optis (250XS had been out for a while though). I don't know much about them, but I think they are more of a high performance model.
They have a regular 250 Optimax too, I though it was released recently, along with the 175.
The largest Optimax I've ever seen on saltwater, was 225HP.
The largest Optimax I've ever seen on saltwater, was 225HP.
Also someone told me that with 4 strokes you need to do a adjustment to the vavles every year? 3 to 5 hours of work? Anyone know anything about this?
The Yamaha tech I talked to yesterday (who has been an outboard tech for 18 years), is now 100% sold on 4s, and specifically his current area of expertise is with the yammies. He said he is seeing 3000+ hours on them routinely now, with very few issues.
Yamaha HQ commands their dealers to sell 4 strokers to saltwater big boaters, and VMAXs HPDIs to their freshwater smaller bass boat type guys.
That's the Yamaha product line strategy, no secret there.
That's the Yamaha product line strategy, no secret there.
The average boater will not see 3000 hours, at 100 hours a year it's 30 years. Is the VMAX even rated for salt water?
Grog, same engines, however, 4 stroke (so called "new technology") was still born in the FW and bass boat world, so Yamaha had no choice if they wanted to compete - they redesigned ("Series 2 ?") from what we know as the HPDI 250/300, as the next generation big block modern two stroker. We all know it's reputation, not so with smaller block 2.6L (150/175/200)
To keep us, in the bigger SW boat arena, from applying a VMAX to our boats, is the fact that Yamaha only offers 20 inch lower units.
I'm sure the Yamaha techs/sales working in the marinas and dealers around the bass boat world, don't ever mention the words, four stroke.
Isn't it something that Yamaha continues investment in development of the modern 2 stroke.
One can read about it in the latest catalog.
To keep us, in the bigger SW boat arena, from applying a VMAX to our boats, is the fact that Yamaha only offers 20 inch lower units.
I'm sure the Yamaha techs/sales working in the marinas and dealers around the bass boat world, don't ever mention the words, four stroke.
Isn't it something that Yamaha continues investment in development of the modern 2 stroke.
One can read about it in the latest catalog.
BobP said:
The decibal readings for both engines are the same, but it is a proven fact that the 4 strokes operate at a more plesant frequency and sound quieter to the human ear. At rpm's over 4500 it will not be noticed as much but at ball other operating speeds you can definetley tell the differnce when underway. The oild changes are super easy. Change filters takes 5 min each engine. Pumping old oil out is not tough, but it is time consuming if you do not have an electric pump. The hand pump takes about 10-15min depending on how fast ypu can pump per engine. Refilling oil, well I won't go into how easy that is. There really is no need to have a tech do this, it is a simple diy job. Take a day to work on the engines, clean the boat and sit back and drink a beer as the sunsets!!! I think between oil and filters it cost me roughly $40 an engine. The HPDI will burn way more then that in 100 hours. On a single HPDI with 120 hours I burned over $400 in oil. Run twins and it will be twice that.
Not gonna bash merc's, but on many Grady models they just do nto perform well. Merc's always seem to preform better on go fast boats that are light and thin. Also, to have opti's, you will have to repower.
This post was about comparing HPDI and 4 strokes, you guys are going way past that let's help the guy out so he buys the right boat for his use. He has 2 potential boats he can purchase and may need to act fast, useless sidetracking isn't helping.
I'm with gradyfish22 on this one, and I'm an old 2-smoke fan from way back. I would take HPDI's if I found a boat that was gorgeous otherwise and was a great buy. But my first choice would definately be the 4-strokes. The 2-stroke smell is there, even on the HPDI. The e-tec has even less, but we're comparing yamahas mounted on two boats for sale.
There is also a difference in selling price verses asking price. If the boats are priced the same, are they similarly equipped, and in similar condition? From a price vs value standpoint, the one with HPDI's should come in about 10% less - no offense to any HPDI owners :wink: .
Maintenance on either is insignificant, certainly not what I personally would consider in my choice of engine.
Slimjim - if you're having a dealer or tech do your annual they may suggest checking valve lash, but in reality they probably only need to have them checked every 4-500 hours. I have not heard of any actually needing to be 'adjusted' until more than a thousand hours. But I could be wrong!! BTW, they are solid 'lifters'. Actually, there are no lifters, they are overhead cam, and there's a 'shim bucket', so any adjustments require a different sized shim. Same way motorcycle engines are. At least that's my understanding.
And last, a couple of hundred pounds on a 282 seems insignificant to me - again, not what I would even consider for an engine choice.
There is also a difference in selling price verses asking price. If the boats are priced the same, are they similarly equipped, and in similar condition? From a price vs value standpoint, the one with HPDI's should come in about 10% less - no offense to any HPDI owners :wink: .
Maintenance on either is insignificant, certainly not what I personally would consider in my choice of engine.
Slimjim - if you're having a dealer or tech do your annual they may suggest checking valve lash, but in reality they probably only need to have them checked every 4-500 hours. I have not heard of any actually needing to be 'adjusted' until more than a thousand hours. But I could be wrong!! BTW, they are solid 'lifters'. Actually, there are no lifters, they are overhead cam, and there's a 'shim bucket', so any adjustments require a different sized shim. Same way motorcycle engines are. At least that's my understanding.
And last, a couple of hundred pounds on a 282 seems insignificant to me - again, not what I would even consider for an engine choice.
What is your basis for the 10% boat figure for the 200 HPDIs vs. Fs?
I would not buy a 4 stroke from a source I didn't know personally, a guy say next to me in the marina I know how he uses it and how it takes care of it, and talks problems, fine, no one else.
These issues with gas leaking into the crankcase from the mechanical fuel pumps, blown crankcase seals, making oil from improperly broken in heads, it's too much of a risk over HPDI 2 strokes - not to have warranty coverage - hundreds of parts more, much more costlier to repair when it goes - see the stories at THT.
With both boats being similar pricing I wonder what else is going on, there's a lot to consider besides engines. For the member who started the thread, 2 vs. 4 may matter the most. Some of us may want a trouble free engine regardless if 2 or 4, etc.
I would not buy a 4 stroke from a source I didn't know personally, a guy say next to me in the marina I know how he uses it and how it takes care of it, and talks problems, fine, no one else.
These issues with gas leaking into the crankcase from the mechanical fuel pumps, blown crankcase seals, making oil from improperly broken in heads, it's too much of a risk over HPDI 2 strokes - not to have warranty coverage - hundreds of parts more, much more costlier to repair when it goes - see the stories at THT.
With both boats being similar pricing I wonder what else is going on, there's a lot to consider besides engines. For the member who started the thread, 2 vs. 4 may matter the most. Some of us may want a trouble free engine regardless if 2 or 4, etc.
dmcneane said:
I know there is a very vocal minority of people on this board who LOVE the two strokes. I am fairly sure there is alot of sound reasoning in their logic and reasons...but to be fair, not the least of which is familiarity breeds comfort.
However, the big 4s are not new anymore. The jury is done on the reliability of 4s now. They are good, especially later model engines.
They work, last a ridiculously long time, they are quiet and do not smell and they are economical to run. I don't know about comparing them to cars except the fact they are 4s. These are engines designed specifically for a marine environment. And they will certainly give you better resale, especially in Grady's who are clearly a 4 stroke engine proponent.
2 stroke is fine and well tested and understood. They clearly have their place in the performance arena (see posts about go-fasts and competitive freshwater fishermen) but if you want to own what the majority of the market demands, I would think you should go with 4s. My .02.
Either way, get a good mechanical survey.
Have you run either boat? Heard the engines at least? When my wife heard and smelled a boat with a pair of 2s on it, she said...that's not what we are getting is it?!? :roll:
I forgot to mention before -
The "expensive ringfree" is to be used for both HPDIs and Fs, same usage, by gallon of fuel, per both owners manuals, if you follow the manual.
Andy on SIM over at THT keeps reminding people who are getting buildup on their 4 stroke plugs, and eyeballing deposits when looking at the pistons via the plug bores, when Andy recommends a higher short term dosage - possible blowby issue causing oil making.
Am I the one reading the 4 stroke F maladies over at THT, or the only one who wants to mention it here ?
The "expensive ringfree" is to be used for both HPDIs and Fs, same usage, by gallon of fuel, per both owners manuals, if you follow the manual.
Andy on SIM over at THT keeps reminding people who are getting buildup on their 4 stroke plugs, and eyeballing deposits when looking at the pistons via the plug bores, when Andy recommends a higher short term dosage - possible blowby issue causing oil making.
Am I the one reading the 4 stroke F maladies over at THT, or the only one who wants to mention it here ?
In 2001, Grady would never have sold any boat 20 ft plus since Fs were not on the scene, as I recall.
Who says Fs are not tried and true ?
I like both two and four stroke, no one builds a crappy engine any more, in my opinion.
As far as high tech goes, at least the Verados use a supercharger, uncommon in the car engine world. I give them credit.
As far as Yamaha goes, the new F350 and future rebadged F350 to F300, is only for use on 2008 and later Gradys, how about the rest of us ?
As far as Yamaha dealers go, more profit on higher priced 4 stroke sales, and more service order work for the Yamaha trained mechanics with the four strokers.
Both clearly don't benefit the typical 100 hr/yr owner, unless you also own a Yamaha dealership.
Who says Fs are not tried and true ?
I like both two and four stroke, no one builds a crappy engine any more, in my opinion.
As far as high tech goes, at least the Verados use a supercharger, uncommon in the car engine world. I give them credit.
As far as Yamaha goes, the new F350 and future rebadged F350 to F300, is only for use on 2008 and later Gradys, how about the rest of us ?
As far as Yamaha dealers go, more profit on higher priced 4 stroke sales, and more service order work for the Yamaha trained mechanics with the four strokers.
Both clearly don't benefit the typical 100 hr/yr owner, unless you also own a Yamaha dealership.