Battery upgrade for 228 and a question

[Seafarer_Bob]

I finally completed the battery upgrade in my 228 as i just added a bunch of electronics and getting ready to install a sterio. Now I have two Optima group 31 AGM deep cycle for house on one switch connected to the motor with the isolator cable and one Optima high performance starting battery connected to a second switch directly to the main and the kicker. Tight fit with both batteries to port but wanted it that way to offset the 9.9 kicker to starboard.
Questions. 1) Should I also run a cable from one of the house batteries to the second battery lead on the starter switch? This would allow me to combine all 3 batteries for an emergency jump start but not sure if this would damage the batteries or starter since both charging leads would be on the same circuit at least momentarily. 2) assuming this red button is a breaker, should it be protecting house or should I move it to the starting battery switch.

 

[DennisG01]

If I'm understanding #1 correctly, you're concerned about an issue when paralleling all the batteries together? No, that won't cause an issue. You can have multiple sources of charge input. You could actually do all this with a single 1-2-Both-Off switch, if you wanted. The DC's (essentially are a single "bank") are connected to #1 and the Cranking battery on #2. Then you can decide which battery bank you connect to the engines. Add a simple on/off switch between the DC bank and the "house".

FYI... if a battery bank is depleted, DO NOT combine it with the other bank to start an engine otherwise the good bank will ALSO be trying to "charge" the low power bank.

#2: What red button?

 

[Seafarer_Bob]

Thank you, that addresses my main concern. I plan to leave the house switch on "both" most of the time to keep them parallel but would like the ability to isolate them if one has a problem.

#2) Just realized I omitted the pic of the red button. Assuming it's a breaker, should it be protecting the House or the Starting circuit/ switch?

 

[SkunkBoat]

The red button is the House breaker, probably 40A. IMO you should replace it with a Bussman 185 style breaker.
the red buttons suck, they rust behind the white cover and the terminals are too small.

IMO there is no point to having a switch on the parallel House batteries to "split them". When parallel they are one battery. If there is a problem with one you won't know which one is the culprit anyways.Treat it like its one battery. Put one charging input to them as though they are one battery.
The House breaker should be fed from the parallel DC batteries. In addition to the breaker you should have an ON/Off switch to the House.

Ideally you want the HouseBank and Start batteries isolated from each other so the House runs everything (except the motor) and the Start only Starts the motor. And both the HouseBank and the Start battery should always be charging when the motor is running. (This is NOT they way Grady wires them)

I'll draw you a picture but first;

Questions

How are you starting the kicker? Same START battery or pull start?

Do you have an onboard charger? 2 or 3 circiuts?

Does your motor have an Auxillary Charging wire or do you have a separate Isolator in the motor Start circiut?

 

[SkunkBoat]

 

[Seafarer_Bob]

The red button is the House breaker, probably 40A. IMO you should replace it with a Bussman 185 style breaker.
the red buttons suck, they rust behind the white cover and the terminals are too small.

IMO there is no point to having a switch on the parallel House batteries to "split them". When parallel they are one battery. If there is a problem with one you won't know which one is the culprit anyways.Treat it like its one battery. Put one charging input to them as though they are one battery.
The House breaker should be fed from the parallel DC batteries. In addition to the breaker you should have an ON/Off switch to the House.

Ideally you want the HouseBank and Start batteries isolated from each other so the House runs everything (except the motor) and the Start only Starts the motor. And both the HouseBank and the Start battery should always be charging when the motor is running. (This is NOT they way Grady wires them)

I'll draw you a picture but first;

Questions

How are you starting the kicker? Same START battery or pull start?

Same start battery

Do you have an onboard charger? 2 or 3 circiuts?

No on board charging yet, I store the boat in a yard with no power so the next step is to install a 100w solar panel on the roof with a solar charge controler

Does your motor have an Auxillary Charging wire or do you have a separate Isolator in the motor Start circiut?

The main engine is an 05 F225 that comes with the aux charging port so I just installed the Yamaha isolator lead which is now connected to the 3 way "house switch". Instead of of using "both" on the house switch as i intended, I will parallel the two house batteries and connect them to the Bat1 input on the "house switch".

The kicker is a Yamaha T9.9 with electric start / tilt trim with its own alternator. Not enough alternator output to jump start the main engine but I had a similar setup on my last boat and I can confirm it'll eventually charge the starting battery enough to turn it over.
The Kicker and F225 are both connected to the same terminal on the "Starter switch" which is connected to the high cranking start battery on Bat1.
After I parallel the two house batteries House bat 1, unless I hear otherwise I'll also connect the 2 paralleled house batteries to bat 2 input on the "starter switch". Under normal operations I'll run with both switches on bat1 but if engine fails to start, I should be able to switch the Starter switch to either Bat2 to only start from house, or, "both" will combine all 3 with no consequences to the engine or the batteries.

 

[PNW_Drifter]

Skunk boat knows what's up. For the ultimate fool proof system get the Blue Seas ACR and replace the switch with this one. Seems similar but important difference. But if you add the ACR follow Blue Seas wiring diagram. They have one for what you want to do.

https://amzn.to/35ZcvYO

Nigel Calder said it best. "Battery's don't die, they are murdered." Referring to us humans thinking we know best playing with switches.

 

[Halfhitch]

This is from the Blue Seas website.....
https://www.bluesea.com/resources/170/Battery_Management_Wiring_Schematics_for_Typical_Applications

 

[SkunkBoat]

If you use the Yamaha or Suzuki Aux cable you don't need an ACR

 

[Seafarer_Bob]

Skunk boat knows what's up. For the ultimate fool proof system get the Blue Seas ACR and replace the switch with this one. Seems similar but important difference. But if you add the ACR follow Blue Seas wiring diagram. They have one for what you want to do.

https://amzn.to/35ZcvYO

Nigel Calder said it best. "Battery's don't die, they are murdered." Referring to us humans thinking we know best playing with switches.

I considered the Blue Sea system but my understanding is when the motor is running, it parallels all batteries and I was told it's not good to have different battery types on the same system. The Yamaha isolator keeps house and starting batteries completely separate, unless I combine them for an emergency start.

 

[dogdoc]

only thing i would add to skunks layout is a voltmeter for the house side. i ran wire from battery compartment for both starting and house bats to helm and have a small digital voltmeter dedicated to each . allows charging info and state of charge at a glance and piece of mind on an old boat with more electronics than originally designed and a lot of gremlins lurking about

 

[PNW_Drifter]

I considered the Blue Sea system but my understanding is when the motor is running, it parallels all batteries and I was told it's not good to have different battery types on the same system. The Yamaha isolator keeps house and starting batteries completely separate, unless I combine them for an emergency start.

That's my understanding too. If you have them isolated it's fine. Different battery types no but sizes is ok.

 

[Seafarer_Bob]

only thing i would add to skunks layout is a voltmeter for the house side. i ran wire from battery compartment for both starting and house bats to helm and have a small digital voltmeter dedicated to each . allows charging info and state of charge at a glance and piece of mind on an old boat with more electronics than originally designed and a lot of gremlins lurking about

That would be nice, what battery monitor will provide charge level? I have room on my dash for another small display or I'd be interested in something that would integrate with my Garmin 8510. I'm planning to add a 100w solar panel on the roof and it looks like most solar charge controllers offer this type of functionality so may just go that route.

 

[seasick]

In addition to using similar battery types, it is advisable to have similar age ones.

 

[SkunkBoat]

I think if you are set up with the House and Start isolated(charging and operating separately) there is no logical reason to need them to be the same type or age.
The only time it is an issue is if they are paralleled. That would only be in a rare emergency to start a motor and in that case there is a problem with at least one of them anyways.

The always parallel house batteries should be the same brand, type and age. they are "one battery".

If you have two start batteries, one for each motor, you could make a good case for staggering their age by two or three years so you always have one fairly new Start battery onboard.
With the added benefit of not having to buy two new batteries at once.

With the typical 1/both/2/off switch setup, I think that there are people out there who run their switch on BOTH for some crazy reason ( so they are charging both??) and in that case, yes, the batteries should be identical. IMO, that is just stupid.

 

[dogdoc]

volt meter will give you a fair idea of state of charge with healthy batteries. a more accurate state of charge /capacity level requires a bit more, a meter with a shunt wired in will give accurate voltage and state of charge. yes many solar systems are equipped with that set up. i use mine to monitor resting voltage and to see that voltage is increased or at least not decreasing when running indicating the engines are providing some charge function. all comes from our first trip offshore with new autopilot. 25 miles out at the end off the day we heard a warning beep and 30 seconds later lost all house battery supplied systems, including all nav equipment. turns out the aux wire was not working to charge house batts so only charge came from being plugged in at dock. prior to auto pilot ( the pump esp) the current drain on a trip was minimal so no issue, running the pump 6 hours drained the battery to below min functional voltage. a simple volt meter and some observation would have shown a problem was occurring.

 

[SkunkBoat]

regarding the voltmeter. The engine gauge will display the Start battery voltage.
Most MFDs can display the House voltage and can set an alarm level to warn you. Of course, this is the voltage at the MFD which can be somewhat less than at the battery.

 

[dogdoc]

with my twin 250s only the port engine voltage is displayed, i have not figured out how to cycle to starboard if that is even possible and yes mfd (garmin) reads voltage of house but tiny letters and hard to read when running and i like redundancy. as for the alarm it gave me 30 sec warning before dead. maybe that setting can be adjusted as well.

 

[SkunkBoat]

with my twin 250s only the port engine voltage is displayed, i have not figured out how to cycle to starboard if that is even possible and yes mfd (garmin) reads voltage of house but tiny letters and hard to read when running and i like redundancy. as for the alarm it gave me 30 sec warning before dead. maybe that setting can be adjusted as well.

Yes, only the port engine harness displays on the gauge.
The garmin alarm can be set. I think it defaults to 11.2V.
It can be a great trouble indicator, especially if you have two and one is in the dash and one is in the hardtop.
My hardtop one gave me alarms when the dash did not. Turned out to be a blade fuse connection in the upper fuse block.....which lead me to find that the fuse block itself was corroded and melted in the back and about to fall apart.

I have thought about adding a current meter on the House. That would be useful.

 

[dogdoc]

forgot to mention, 100 w panel will be nothing more than a maintainer. additionally most controllers are single bank design. there are multibank controllers out there but not sure how well they work. peak amp output on a 12v 100w panel might be 3-4 amps divided between 3 banks, pretty low