Canyon 306 Refueling problem

[ACV]

I have a 2021 Canyon 306. I have t had it long. When I am refueling at about 55% tank capacity fuel starts spitting out the plastic vent hole next to the refueling nozzle. Even if I slow the fueling down to a trickle it spits back. Is there a way to check the physical level in the tank? Perhaps it is full and the CL5 Yamaha gauge is incorrectly reading? Any help would be appreciated.

 

[Sardinia306Canyon]

Hi ACV

I just bought a 2011 306 Canyon and for the transfer i filled both tanks to the top, no spitting at all.
One thing about spitting is that you have to listen to the sound when filling, when almost full then the sound changes and thats usually then when you should stop the pistol.

I have my Canyon only a week now and i have to admit that i have no idea where the fuel tank vents are,
however when you refuel next time you should check if there is air blowing out of the corresponding vent. If not then the vent may be clogged/restricted what often leads to spitting. Not sure if your Canyon has a carbon coal canister to catch gasoline fumes, escaping from the vent line, they can lead to as well to a vent restriction.

Even if I slow the fueling down to a trickle it spits back.

Thats a bit wired as if really slow there should just be overflow but no spitting.

The fuel pump at Los Sueños Marina in Costa Rica is very fast and on both my boats she did some spitting if i opened the pump completely despite the vents where working as supposed. So thats maybe the case in the place you refuel.

The only way to verify the fuel level in the tanks is with the fuel level sensors and it can be that they are stuck, but both same time?
When i filled the tanks before i left ex owners marina i noticed that the left bar on the CL5 was showing half tank all the time and after leaving the fuel dock and heading to my marina within about 5 minutes the fuel level rose slowly up to full.
Not happy about that and i probably need to change the fuel level sensor, even if i am used to use the used and remaining fuel as indicator when it's time to visit the gas station.

Chris

 

[ACV]

Hi ACV

I just bought a 2011 306 Canyon and for the transfer i filled both tanks to the top, no spitting at all.
One thing about spitting is that you have to listen to the sound when filling, when almost full then the sound changes and thats usually then when you should stop the pistol.

I have my Canyon only a week now and i have to admit that i have no idea where the fuel tank vents are,
however when you refuel next time you should check if there is air blowing out of the corresponding vent. If not then the vent may be clogged/restricted what often leads to spitting. Not sure if your Canyon has a carbon coal canister to catch gasoline fumes, escaping from the vent line, they can lead to as well to a vent restriction.

Thats a bit wired as if really slow there should just be overflow but no spitting.

The fuel pump at Los Sueños Marina in Costa Rica is very fast and on both my boats she did some spitting if i opened the pump completely despite the vents where working as supposed. So thats maybe the case in the place you refuel.

The only way to verify the fuel level in the tanks is with the fuel level sensors and it can be that they are stuck, but both same time?
When i filled the tanks before i left ex owners marina i noticed that the left bar on the CL5 was showing half tank all the time and after leaving the fuel dock and heading to my marina within about 5 minutes the fuel level rose slowly up to full.
Not happy about that and i probably need to change the fuel level sensor, even if i am used to use the used and remaining fuel as indicator when it's time to visit the gas station.

Chris

Cheers Chris. My 306 only has a single tank and are fairly certain the vent is working. Will have to do a physical check of the contents to confirm the actual percentage in the tank. If that’s ok then the vent maybe blocked which will be another headache.

 

[seasick]

There is no easy way to determine how full the tank is other than filling very slowly until the vent or the fill line overflow. Then reset your fuel management system for the tank capacity. As you use the boat, note the fuel used and compare to the tank display. Holding the fuel nozzle out a bit may help the gas to flow.
On boats with emission fuel vapor tanks, filling to the brim is not recommended. What are you using that tells you the tank is 55% full?
If you have a fuel management system or CY5 type display, verify that the tank capacity data is correct

 

[Hookup1]

GW uses the Perko vented fuel fills - the vent is inside the fuel fill. It could be the tank is nearly full and the tank sending unit is bad.

This is obvious but I'll say it anyway - burn off plenty of fuel before pulling the sending unit - or you will have fuel all over the place! You can check sending unit with a ohm meter to see what readings are when empty, along the way and full (30 to 240 ohms). Make sure the ohms vary as you move the float - should be at least 8 level reading. Replace with KUS WEMA type. You need to know the length so measure it or stick the tank with a wooden yardstick. Sensor is indexed (rotated) and will only go in one way otherwise screws won't line up. New gasket too.

How To Troubleshoot Your Marine Fuel Level Sender | KUS Americas, Inc.

Do you know what to do if your fuel level sender stops working out on the water? Click here to learn how to diagnose and replace a marine fuel level sender.

kus-usa.com

 

[ACV]

GW uses the Perko vented fuel fills - the vent is inside the fuel fill. It could be the tank is nearly full and the tank sending unit is bad.

This is obvious but I'll say it anyway - burn off plenty of fuel before pulling the sending unit - or you will have fuel all over the place! You can check sending unit with a ohm meter to see what readings are when empty, along the way and full (30 to 240 ohms). Make sure the ohms vary as you move the float - should be at least 8 level reading. Replace with KUS WEMA type. You need to know the length so measure it or stick the tank with a wooden yardstick. Sensor is indexed (rotated) and will only go in one way otherwise screws won't line up. New gasket too.

How To Troubleshoot Your Marine Fuel Level Sender | KUS Americas, Inc.

Do you know what to do if your fuel level sender stops working out on the water? Click here to learn how to diagnose and replace a marine fuel level sender.

kus-usa.com

 

[ACV]

Thank you. Good advice.

There is no easy way to determine how full the tank is other than filling very slowly until the vent or the fill line overflow. Then reset your fuel management system for the tank capacity. As you use the boat, note the fuel used and compare to the tank display. Holding the fuel nozzle out a bit may help the gas to flow.
On boats with emission fuel vapor tanks, filling to the brim is not recommended. What are you using that tells you the tank is 55% full?
If you have a fuel management system or CY5 type display, verify that the tank capacity data is correct

i use the Yamaha CL5 gauge which displays percentage of rated full capacity remaining.

 

[Hookup1]

Thank you. Good advice.

i use the Yamaha CL5 gauge which displays percentage of rated full capacity remaining.

The sending units have magnetic reed switches and resistors inside them. As the float moves switches open and close to create a variable resistance as above. The CL5 or Yamaha fuel gauge "debounce" the sending unit and convert to a percentage reading (CL5) or 8-bars of fuel (Yamaha gauge). Your sending unit can/is possibly bad.

As Seasick said you may have the ability to reset the CL5 fuel level or set the tank size. I don't have that on my boat so you will have to talk to others.

That CL5 is a Garmin unit interfaced to the motors. On my F150's and my Garmin unit I can setup a " virtual" fuel tank. Enter the tank size and update the fuel and go! The computer gets fuel burn from the engines (reasonably accurate) and adjusts the virtual fuel gauge. When you add fuel you have to tell it what you added. The in-tank gauge is probably more accurate but neither one can be trusted when fuel is low. I'll bet you can select which one to use for fuel tank level.

 

[ACV]

Thanks, that is also very helpful and will allow me to at least eliminate or confirm the sensors status.

 

[Sardinia306Canyon]

Ok, when you have only one fuel tank then a stuck or failing fuel tank sending unit is more likely.
You may try first the settings of the CL5 and try to new set and calibrate it, thats probably the easiest task.
However, you should also opt to pull the fuel sender installed and replace it with a new one to make sure that it's working as supposed. I am in the believe that if i pull the sender then i replace it with a new one, fuel tanks senders are not expensive stuff.
The kind showed below are from my experience the longest lasting and avoid the cheap lever style ones as they rust if fuel tank is not always full.Changing a fuel tank sender is not a difficult task, but you have to consider some important things.
1° gasoline is extremely inflammable --> no cigarettes, no sparks of any kind, no flames near the open fuel tank, NEVER
2° the gas tank is treaded so be gentle when loosing the bolts and particularly when screwing them down to avoid stripping the treads
3° clean the base where the gasket between tank and sender sit well to avoid leaks
4° i close the open hole immediately with a rag to avoid fumes exit and things falling inside, dirt in particular
5° if you mark the indexed sender plate with the fuel tank surface you will have to guess less in what direction he goes if you reuse the old one. On a new one checking the hole pattern on the old and the new sending unit help with guesswork too.

My Aux Tank sender is acting up again and showed yesterday only 80% instead of full as the engines get fuel from the main tank,
so i guess in the next days or weeks i will change it with a new one. Unfortunately you have a different tank so my sender may be different than the one you need.

Check the manual or online about setting the fuel tank capacity and calibrating them, on the older Yamaha Gages both was possible but not sure on our CL5.

If you have a Garmin MFD then you can program it to read the yamaha fuel flow and show it on the Fuel page on the Garmin MFD and the calculated fuel is spot on. I had this on my Venture 34 and on my 30ft RIB and on both boats difference between filling up and the value of remaining fuel was irrelevant small and probably due difference in refueling process.
If you have other than Garmin MFD's than you have to check with others as i know only Garmin devices.

 

[ACV]

Thanks for that. I will burn off some fuel and remove the sender then dip the tank and roughly calculate the percentage in the tank and compare it to the percentage shown on the gauge. Will check the ohms from empty to full by moving the float then move on from that. The senders are not expensive as you say. Even in Australia where I am based. Will need to watch the resistance European v USA though if I replace the unit.

 

[Sardinia306Canyon]

Will need to watch the resistance European v USA though if I replace the unit.

Honestly i don't know what resistance is used in Australia and what kind GW used from factory if yours is sttill original what is probably not the case.. You may ask there down under around what is used and available.

Im not sure if you can setup the CL5 to either European or US resistance, the older round ones had a dip switch to set that.
If you can set it in the setup of the CL5 then it does not matter, if not then it matters and you need to buy the correct one,
with a wrong kind reading will be inverterted.

Does the CL5 show the used and remaining fuel? my C6Y show it and that is very attendible on newer motors where fuel flow is read by injector cycles and not as earlier or generic ones with a impeller flow measuring device.
Chris

 

[Sardinia306Canyon]

Just found it,
it seems that you can choose either fuel sensor type under the Tank Presets menu

 

[Hookup1]

I doubt Grady White installs Euro sending units. Probably USA. Look at the sending unit top. There may be information etched. You need the length and resistance.

I'm alway concerned about explosion hazard when working on fuel tanks. I put dry ice in fuel fill and add more when I pull the sending unit.

 

[Sardinia306Canyon]

I'm alway concerned about explosion hazard when working on fuel tanks. I put dry ice in fuel fill and add more when I pull the sending unit.

I searched a while ago about this topic and found a article by swiss agency for labour safety regarding welding on tanks said basically the same, but not in the gasoline, in the water after the gasoline was removed. The CO2 (what dry ice is in form of compressed CO2 snow) will expand end push put the gasoline fumes and empty the tank with inertial CO2.
However, dropping dry ice in the gasoline should work as well and do the same as in water.
However, changing fuel sender is mostly done without any particular precautions other than the ones i wrote and includes myself doing it a lot of times on my and clients boats
No sparks mean also no wire brushing the tank, no power leads nearby and do it outside where fuel vapours can go away.

However, who is not 100% cool with doing that should probably have a Pro doing it, the money spent is well invested....
Chris

 

[Beyond A Wake]

I have been through this on my 2019 boat. One tank only. Calibration could only be done with empty tank!!!! So I got a new sender, disconnected old one while in tank, connected new sender and set it at Zero. Reconnected old one and let the system work its magic. Now it works.
I do have a challenge with the fuel flow calculation, get the info on my CL7 and also on my Raymarine Axiom, but it does not compute correctly. So I go by roughly calculating 1G/NM and use that for how much is used as the Raymarine keeps track of NM as part of trips.
Not happy with the setup as it is not reliable but then again NEVER trying to use the last 25% of the tank And one should be ok. (25% is about 75G!!!!!) margin for error is ok in that case. 10% is normal margin and most gauges are set to a full tank representing 90% of capacity.
US or Euro standard are both options on CL7.

 

[Sardinia306Canyon]

I do have a challenge with the fuel flow calculation, get the info on my CL7 and also on my Raymarine Axiom, but it does not compute correctly.

Oh, that is wired, usually fuel flow, economy and used fuel is rather spot on.
I used this on my Venture 34 twin Suzuki DF300AP charter boat and the last years on my 30ft RIB with Yamaha F250 and it was spot on as i wrote before.
Not sure on the CL7, but the others have a fuel flow calibration, may it be that this is set wrong on your CL7?
You can see the procedure on the picture i posted above.
If this is set correct then i would contact your Yamaha dealer about that, there is something wrong as fuel flow should be correct.
Chris

 

[Beyond A Wake]

I believe the flow is correct as shown on both CL7 and Raymarine but the calculations for how much is used are off the chart with multiple decimal points. So as I said I use the NM for reference and compare to the sender shown level in tank.

 

[Sardinia306Canyon]

but the calculations for how much is used are off the chart with multiple decimal points.

Honestly i don't understand that, but i don't use Raymarine gear.

The test if calculations are correct is simple:
Fill till you hear the sound when tank is full and fuel rises in the filler hose
Go fishing or cruising, as much as better
Fill again till you hear the sound when tank is full and fuel rises in the filler hose
Verify the gallons you put with the Gallons used and remaining fuel shown on your Raymarine,
it's either totally off (what i don't believe) or within 1-2% off what i would consider as difference while filling.
If it's not accurate then you should check the settings on the raymarine as i would exclude that a modern outboard will send garbage fuel flow data.

Every time i filled my Venture 34 and filled 250-350 gallons the difference was 1-2 gallons, as long i did not forgot to add the correct quantity of fuel.

I use the fuel gauge only to see if someone would have stolen fuel what is very difficult on my boats and had boats with no working fuel gauge.

So as I said I use the NM for reference and compare to the sender shown level in tank.
This is the most inaccurate way to measure that, fuel tank senders are known for showing highly unreliable data.
I could use the fuel sender on my BW 23 back in 2000 rather reliable, but only this way:
The boat was always empty as the marina was not safe!
the first thing i did was getting aboard and sit in my position on the leaning post and check fuel level.
Doing always same way and with no changing loads gave me a rather reliable result what i could verify with the then available Yamaha fuel flow measuring device between tank and engines and the round command link gauges.

Chris

 

[SkunkBoat]

do new four stroke yammies still use the old inline fuel flow sensor or does that come from the ECM now?

Fuel level and Fuel flow (burn) are two entirely different things. Separate your thought process.

I would clear out calibrations and check the setup for sensor type and tank size and shape.

55% is "fuel level" if that is using the tank level sensor. That would equate to 4 or 5 bars on an old digital gauge or 5/8 ths on an old analog gauge.
If you think the tank is actully full, the US sensor would measure approx 30 ohms. A euro sensor would measure approx 180 ohms.
What type sensor is programmed in your CL5?

• For the standard American version sender (240-30 ohms), you will have between 232 to 252 ohms @ empty, and 28 to 36 ohms @ full.
• For the standard European version sender (0-180 ohms), you will have between 0 to 2 ohms @ empty, and 171 to 192 ohms @ full. (NOTICE that it works opposite than US)

242-32= 210 swing 180(full euro)/210= .86 BUT US is inverse (highrer ohms =lower level) , so so you would expect to read approx 14% if the tank was full and the unit was set to US but had a euro sensor. That could be changed by the calibration being wrong and the tank shape being wrong.

Euro has a 180 ohm swing . 32 (full US) /180 =.18 If you have a full tank and a US sensor with type set to Euro, you would expect to read approx 18%


On my Zukes, Fuel burn comes from the ECM of each motor and you can see TOTAL fuel burn (combination of both motors) on the gauges and on MFDs thru NMEA 2K.
The Zuke gauge calculates gallons used after last RESET of Trip on the gauge.
Garmin MFD can count down "gallons" and show you "remaining gallons" if you tell it tank capacities and how much fuel you put in. This requires you to RESET Trip on the GARMIN.
In both of these cases, it is using fuel burn to calculate gallons used. The fuel level is entirely separate from this.

If you don't reset trip on both, you will be all screwed up.