future grady models...40 ft express
- Thread starter TunaT
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gw204 said:Gary M said:Fishtales said:
There's nothing simple about outboards these days.
If its simplicity you're after nothing beats a diesel. no spark plugs, minimal moving parts, and troubleshooting is as simple as 1,2,3: fuel, air, and combustion
It is VERY unlikely GW will stray from 100% outboard power. A few year back many said a 33' with outboards would NEVER sell. Yeah, right.
40' cabin models are just around the corner. The down side is the new GW models make my Marlin look smaller and smaller.
I fully agree about the positives of four strokes over diesel. My boat is so quiet even on plane. My wife hated 2 stroke fumes and would dislike diesel even more. There was a time when any boat over 30 (SKA go fasts excluded) would be diesel powered. Of course there was also a time when a camera used film, phones had a cord, portable music had a tape, and TVs had a tube. Thing change.
40' cabin models are just around the corner. The down side is the new GW models make my Marlin look smaller and smaller.
I fully agree about the positives of four strokes over diesel. My boat is so quiet even on plane. My wife hated 2 stroke fumes and would dislike diesel even more. There was a time when any boat over 30 (SKA go fasts excluded) would be diesel powered. Of course there was also a time when a camera used film, phones had a cord, portable music had a tape, and TVs had a tube. Thing change.
Very true. I don't know as much about diesels but have heard the new electronic Cummins engines are very nice.
Good name as well :wink:
Good name as well :wink:
I believe a lot of people on here are getting confused with inboards and volvo IPS. I do not believe Grady would ever consider an inboard, or at least not in the near future. There is too much stiff competition and they really have no knowledge of this market. IPS on the other hand is new and leaves a big hole for companies to fill. A 40ft boat would be a great boat for this type of drive system. Most companies usung IPS all have to have Volvo review designs or aid in the hull design. No company can just design a boat and slap IPS system on it, Volvo is very strict with this and will not sell them unless the boat is designed for this. This is the prime time for Grady to add a bigger model and try to grab a portion of this market. These engines could be either gas or diesel, but diesel would make more sense. Being in the boating industry, especially in design, I do not feel that an Inboard Grady has any chace of existing in the future. The only diesel Grady that you may ever see would be in the for of IPS. Until then, big Yamaha's will remain on the transom of Grady Whites.
Merry Christmas to all.
I have been following this thread in hope that someone would have an inside track from the factory.
Even though I would not be able to afford a boat of this size, I am still very interested in what route Grady White will take.
Having said that, I have a very strong gut feeling that Grady White will power this boat with nothing but outboards.
I am thinking it will be a 40ft Grady White Express with triple 350hp Yamaha's.
If I had to guess, I would say it would be a dual stateroom, center steering express with all the trimmings. I think that it will 600 gallon fuel tank and Grady White will be waiting for the Yamaha F350s to be bumped up to F400.
I know the Volvo IPS and the Mercruiser Zeus are a completely different beast from Straight inboards but I dont think Grady White will go that route. I am guessing that Grady white is going after a different market, and the simplicity of outboards is exactly what that target market is looking for. With outboards its fuel and go. I have seen alot of people step down from a 50ft+ sportfish to a twin OB simply for the simplicity.
These are just my thoughts. I cant wait to find out.
I have been following this thread in hope that someone would have an inside track from the factory.
Even though I would not be able to afford a boat of this size, I am still very interested in what route Grady White will take.
Having said that, I have a very strong gut feeling that Grady White will power this boat with nothing but outboards.
I am thinking it will be a 40ft Grady White Express with triple 350hp Yamaha's.
If I had to guess, I would say it would be a dual stateroom, center steering express with all the trimmings. I think that it will 600 gallon fuel tank and Grady White will be waiting for the Yamaha F350s to be bumped up to F400.
I know the Volvo IPS and the Mercruiser Zeus are a completely different beast from Straight inboards but I dont think Grady White will go that route. I am guessing that Grady white is going after a different market, and the simplicity of outboards is exactly what that target market is looking for. With outboards its fuel and go. I have seen alot of people step down from a 50ft+ sportfish to a twin OB simply for the simplicity.
These are just my thoughts. I cant wait to find out.
captbone said:
That's what I meant when I mentioned above about "the simplicity of outboards". For me to move up to a bigger Grady with bigger twins would be a LOT simpler than having to learn all about diesel inboards, operating prodecures, normal maintenance, turbos, things to keep an eye out for, etc, etc......
I agree, it WILL be interesting to see what else they come up with!
IF they decide to build it......It will have outboards.....They will wait until the V-8's make AT LEAST 400 HP and maybe even need 450's (Trips)....It will be an express and will have at least one stateroom.......I'm sure many folks can argue about how much better the boat would be with diesels and how at 40 Ft. it'll compete against CaBo, etc.......Not true....It'll be outboard power which creates an entirely new market segment (Just like the 30,33, and 36 before it).....There ARE folks who don't want diesels for a variety of reasons...GW is an outboard boat company and will likely remain that way for a LONG time....Sure IPS is great...But, upcoming advances in outboard technology will permit outboards to do many of the things IPS can do ( Think joystick control, individual computer controlled, steering of multiple outboards (It's already in test))......If you're seriously waiting for GW to put Iron in the hull....Well, all I can say is "Dream, Dream Dream Dream, Dream"
Fishermanbb said:
How in the heck is that gonna work? Sounds interesting, but I can't for the life of me think how it could be done other than with rotating lower units which I would imaging would be a big weak point. Either that or incorporate bow thruster control into the design.
Either way, I still think they're making a big mistake if they continue to avoid inboard power.
When it came time for me to step up from my Sailfish (that time is now), I was looking at 2 boats....the GW Marlin and the Pursuit 3000 Express. Although I like the exterior styling of the Marlin better, the Pursuit won out because of the power package...straight inboards.
I would love to see outboards with joysticks working that way, but so far all the systems out there that can performe these tasks, allow each outdrive to turn apposing one another and not turn in unison. I'm not saying it is impossible, I would love to see it, but I am pretty sure those advances are going to take a bit longer then we think for outboards. We may see small advances, but most will be in size and weight as well as in electronics. Steering capabilities of outboards are limited by the hull and how they are designed to be mounted. For those that want joysticks, outboards are not for you, I'm not saying that in the future something similar may not exist, but it will take a lot of technology for them to excel past zeus and IPS drives in manuverability. Those drive systems were designed to manuvear like that, that was their purpose. Outboards were designed differntly
Gradyfish22, and, well, everybody, I guess.
If I am getting away from the subject at hand, I ask pardon. This seems to tie in, in my view.
My 232 with twin 200's,circa 2007 is my 1st twin rig. I never operated a twin-screw before I took the helm of this boat.
Obviously I am still learning to put the thing dockside, and I'm doing OK, as I proceed slowly.
Point being, I thought you could walk the Gulfstream sideways, like other inboard rigs I see.
Unless I'm missing a key throttle technique, my outboards not only do not "crab" sideways, as I've heard it called, but they do not handle as well overall in the maneuvering dept. as twin inboards.
I'm assuming part of that is the props are way aft, mounted on my bracket, as opposed to under the actual hull, like an inboard.
Now, for the "tie-in."
This, to me, gives extra points to the inboards in the bigger Grady size range..Handling dockside is a huge priority, and I can't help but think that the bigger outboard Gradys would be harder to handle than my 232.
Maybe NOTHING ELSE MATTERS Megabytes and others with the bigger OB rigs can chime in here, as they have more experience handling big OB Gradys.
If I am getting away from the subject at hand, I ask pardon. This seems to tie in, in my view.
My 232 with twin 200's,circa 2007 is my 1st twin rig. I never operated a twin-screw before I took the helm of this boat.
Obviously I am still learning to put the thing dockside, and I'm doing OK, as I proceed slowly.
Point being, I thought you could walk the Gulfstream sideways, like other inboard rigs I see.
Unless I'm missing a key throttle technique, my outboards not only do not "crab" sideways, as I've heard it called, but they do not handle as well overall in the maneuvering dept. as twin inboards.
I'm assuming part of that is the props are way aft, mounted on my bracket, as opposed to under the actual hull, like an inboard.
Now, for the "tie-in."
This, to me, gives extra points to the inboards in the bigger Grady size range..Handling dockside is a huge priority, and I can't help but think that the bigger outboard Gradys would be harder to handle than my 232.
Maybe NOTHING ELSE MATTERS Megabytes and others with the bigger OB rigs can chime in here, as they have more experience handling big OB Gradys.
Everyone wants inboards until they need to work on them. I hated my I/O boats with a passion. I repowered a few. My Volvo's were always better than my Mercs, so a move to the Volvo IPS would be beter fro Grady IMO. However, I'm one of those guys that now having OB's loves not having an engine room.
Based on all the crabbing I hear here about the generators below decks, I can't see how the same group would advocate all your power plants below decks.
As far as newer diesels, they will not last like the older big iron stuff. Jamming a buch of turbos on and running cylinder temps through the roof will lead to shorter than previous models life cycles. And when you order oil by the 55 gallon drum like my frinds Albemarle, good luck. That said cramming 350 ponies on a 5.3 liter block can't make for a long runner either. All the newer engines are run up to the brink of failure to wring out all that HP. I'll be waiting until the power is a bit more proven.
Brian you'd love the Marlin, oil changes are a snap..jh
jh
Based on all the crabbing I hear here about the generators below decks, I can't see how the same group would advocate all your power plants below decks.
As far as newer diesels, they will not last like the older big iron stuff. Jamming a buch of turbos on and running cylinder temps through the roof will lead to shorter than previous models life cycles. And when you order oil by the 55 gallon drum like my frinds Albemarle, good luck. That said cramming 350 ponies on a 5.3 liter block can't make for a long runner either. All the newer engines are run up to the brink of failure to wring out all that HP. I'll be waiting until the power is a bit more proven.
Brian you'd love the Marlin, oil changes are a snap..jh
jh
Capt Bill
GreatGrady Captain
Magical Bill,
The "crabbing" that you are talking about with inboards, is the ability to give an engine a short burst of power, to move (or crab) the stern sideways. This works on inboards because of the size of the props; they "wheel walk" before thrust takes place to move the boat forward (or aft).
This doesn't work on outboards because of the small diameter props, the pitch of the props, and I imagine to a degree, their proximity to each other. Spinning the boat around at the dock is never as easy with twin outboards because they are so close together, and so far behind the transom, but it does work. You will have to use much high rpm's on the engine that is in reverse, and it takes longer to respond, but it does work.
Larger outboard powered boats, including some Marlins, and definitely the 33's and 36, use a bow thruster. This gives the operator much more control at dockside. I believe that a bow thruster is probably standard equipment on the 33, 36 and would be if Grady White builds a 40 with outboards.
Sounds like you are doing fine, and don't be afraid to use things like a dock line, your spring line cleats, and pivoting on a piling, etc. Keep up the good work on your docking.
The "crabbing" that you are talking about with inboards, is the ability to give an engine a short burst of power, to move (or crab) the stern sideways. This works on inboards because of the size of the props; they "wheel walk" before thrust takes place to move the boat forward (or aft).
This doesn't work on outboards because of the small diameter props, the pitch of the props, and I imagine to a degree, their proximity to each other. Spinning the boat around at the dock is never as easy with twin outboards because they are so close together, and so far behind the transom, but it does work. You will have to use much high rpm's on the engine that is in reverse, and it takes longer to respond, but it does work.
Larger outboard powered boats, including some Marlins, and definitely the 33's and 36, use a bow thruster. This gives the operator much more control at dockside. I believe that a bow thruster is probably standard equipment on the 33, 36 and would be if Grady White builds a 40 with outboards.
Sounds like you are doing fine, and don't be afraid to use things like a dock line, your spring line cleats, and pivoting on a piling, etc. Keep up the good work on your docking.
Docking with twins takes time to get used to. Basically I pull past the slip a little then put the engine farthest from the dock in reverse and put the near engine in foreward and varry that one to control the pivot. It will pivot by the engines and don't be afraid to use some RPM's in the reverse motor. Once the stern is inside the piling, your basically in. Don't expect it to behave like the inboard boats but it works.
Wasn't there talk of an zenith drive like control for outboards? If you have the fly by wire and a bow thruster, joystick like control is feasable.
Wasn't there talk of an zenith drive like control for outboards? If you have the fly by wire and a bow thruster, joystick like control is feasable.
Magicalbill, years back i had a single screw diesel which i coud not park if my life was depending on.Kept the boat for a year and traided in for twin gas inboard, what a difference.Kept that boat couple of years and then got a 36' twin screw diesels,WHAT A DIFFERENCE,sold that boat(wife couldn't take the diesel smell)and got into varius twin outboards, they are O.K but nothing like the inboards.I have no problem docking now(do not use bow thruster), after years of experience.I did hit the dock a few times too. :cry: So,practice,practice,practice.It will always get better.
As stated before me by a few, an OB boat will NOT move sideways. Yes, you can bump engines in and out and put it in tight spots if you have a bit of experience, but it will never move directly sideways like a zeus or IPS drive. Inboards can not do this either. Yes, you can bump them in gear hard and crab a little but it is not exactly what you are thinking it is. With twin outboards, you can almost turn on a dime, similar to an inboard, but because the props are aft of the transom, it is not turning ona dime. Inboard powered boats and IPS boats have drives under the boat where they allow better manuverability due to location. The inboard also has a bigger wheel which helps. The Zues drive is probably the most similar to an outboard since it is mounted on the transom, but mechanically it is very differnt. Each drive can turn opposing one another and it has a sophisticated ECU which allos the drives to perform in a manor where the boat can jogg sideways and turn on a dime. These are programs specifically designed to calculate for surrent if hooked up to a GPS and to continuously adjust steering angle and throttle to simulate whatever movement you try to amke the boat do.
Being in the boating industry and knowing about future products, I do not see an outboard being as manuverable as these systems anytime soon. I'm sure someday they will develope and adopt some of these traits but the technology in the outboard industry is not there for these advances. Most of the outboard research lately has been into developing cleaner. lighter, and more powerful machines. Most companies have not done too much to change how the outboard will manuvear, other then fly by wire controls.
I agree with Nothing Else Matters, I have ran inboard and outboard powered boats, as well as IPS powered boats from many makes. Single outboard would be the hardest to manuveur, then a single inboard. Twin outboards are a little better, but IMO it is easier to dock a 68' sportfish boat with twin diesels inboards then it is to dock a boat with twin outboards. IPS is the easiest once you get used to it, but joysticks and such take a bit of getting uses to if you have never done it before.
Being in the boating industry and knowing about future products, I do not see an outboard being as manuverable as these systems anytime soon. I'm sure someday they will develope and adopt some of these traits but the technology in the outboard industry is not there for these advances. Most of the outboard research lately has been into developing cleaner. lighter, and more powerful machines. Most companies have not done too much to change how the outboard will manuvear, other then fly by wire controls.
I agree with Nothing Else Matters, I have ran inboard and outboard powered boats, as well as IPS powered boats from many makes. Single outboard would be the hardest to manuveur, then a single inboard. Twin outboards are a little better, but IMO it is easier to dock a 68' sportfish boat with twin diesels inboards then it is to dock a boat with twin outboards. IPS is the easiest once you get used to it, but joysticks and such take a bit of getting uses to if you have never done it before.
In all actuality controlling the outboards isn't that that hard. Two linear actuators (or 3 for trips) instead of the hydraulic pistons and a bow thruster controlled by a PLC of some sort is all that's needed. The bow thruster is not a necessity but the engines are further back and could use the help.
The "crabbing" I was referring to was actually meant in the complaint sense. There are a ton of threads here about generators getting wet, not running, needing service, a PITA to access, etc. Trust me all that engine in a tiny space with a boat built around them is no fun. But everyone always thinks the grass is greener until they get to the other side. Anyone who has ever sucked 6 quarts of oil thought a dipstick hole, and changed risers/elbows every 3 years know what I'm talking about. And if you've ever done a starter on a 454 slammed into a compartment that was half the proper size....well you know who you are.
And I can't "crab" my marlin in any sense...jh
And I can't "crab" my marlin in any sense...jh
Gradyfish,
Of course, I respect that you are in the boating industry and must have some serious knowledge of what is going on but I must disagree with you on a few things:
Outboards that have independent steering and control capability are currently in development and are likely about 5 years from production (Info from inside the industry).
I would be happy to demonstrate how to "Walk" an outboard sideways provided I can use my bow thruster. By opposing the throttles, giving the inboard" side (Opposite of where you want to walk the boat) extra reverse throttle and using the bow thrustwer simultaneously the boat will move directly sideways.....I've done it many times as have many folks I know....It takes a little practice...But it works perfectly.....
Of course, I respect that you are in the boating industry and must have some serious knowledge of what is going on but I must disagree with you on a few things:
Outboards that have independent steering and control capability are currently in development and are likely about 5 years from production (Info from inside the industry).
I would be happy to demonstrate how to "Walk" an outboard sideways provided I can use my bow thruster. By opposing the throttles, giving the inboard" side (Opposite of where you want to walk the boat) extra reverse throttle and using the bow thrustwer simultaneously the boat will move directly sideways.....I've done it many times as have many folks I know....It takes a little practice...But it works perfectly.....