Nautical Miles/ 228 Seafarer

[wrxhoon]

BTW, you guys are getting crappy fuel economy with those Yamahas. This was in a 1-2 ft chop.View attachment 15726

There are a lot of variables to speed and fuel use. What pitch prop are you using? I think your engine has 2:1 gearbox, going by the rpm and speed looks like 17. The 4.2 Yamaha has 1.75:1 . My boat will do about 33 mph at 4000 rpm with 17" pitch prop. The 4.2 yam has a lot more down low torque than the 3.3 Yam and 3.6 Honda hence the gear ratio.
It depends on the load you have on the boat and the conditions of the sea. I don't know about yours but my boat weighs 6000 when going fishing plus 3 maybe 4 persons, close to 7000 lbs all up.
I don't go by the trim gauge, I trim the leg as required and same with the tabs, mostly used to level the boat. Heading out to sea I trim in until the bow slices the water somewhat so the boat doesn't jump much out of the water. Following sea I trim up to have the bow very high so i don't bury it in the next low as I overtake the waves . I never bother to trim in when taking off, the engine has more than enough grunt out of the hole. I never drive for economy, I know I hold enough fuel (125 gal ) so I drive to get there quick and spend more time fishing. My fuel use is average on fishing trips that may include heading out against wind and current, sometimes we drop at 1200-1500 feet and hold the boat on the spot with the engine . . I then may troll a few hours at 6-8 knts and then come back . I don't take much notice on instant use as that can vary from zero to 1 kn mile per lt.
I drive at a speed as high as possible without breaking my back. You can't compare this with a leisurely stroll in the bay or somewhat protected waters without powerful waves .

 

[Pighunter]

I've repropped with a 4 blade prop, the 3 blade would not keep me on plane at 20-22, supposedly the 4 blade will do it.

But I have to say, gas mileage aside, the boat runs fine in 4x8 if you push the bow down.

Luckydude I was out last week in less then favorable conditions and I was able to stay on plane at 18 MPH working the throttle back and forth as I crested waves. 3 blade prop but a much older and different 225 motor the yours.

 

[Doc Stressor]

There are a lot of variables to speed and fuel use. What pitch prop are you using?

I'm running a 16" prop that started out as a 17". I had it re-pitched and had some of the cupping removed. I turn 5900 rpm at WOT and run 42-44 mph depending on the wind and current direction. I have a manual jack plate that lets me mess around with the engine height and a bunch of different props to play with. And yes, the gear ration is 2:1. The 16" gives me the best overall performance so far.

The Honda is a very different engine than the older and newer Yamaha F250. It has less low end torque than even the 3.3 liter Yamaha and a lot less than the 4.2. I need to get the hull rolling along just over hull speed before bringing it up on plane. It will bog a bit if I punch it from a standing start. I don't care about the holeshot since I run offshore only.

Engines are compromises just like boats. I like the smoothness and fuel economy of the Honda. It also lets me troll. My old Yamaha made so much oil at low rpm that trolling was impossible. That's why I replaced it. The big fat Honda and the jack plate added 50+ lb to the transom, which changed the native running angle of the hull. For the better actually. Once I figured how to make the proper trim and speed adjustments.

The Gulf is very different from the Pacific. A 2 ft chop with a square period is typical. A 3 ft chop with a 2 second period is really too much for the hull. 30+ miles offshore where the bottom contours and current intersections are not much of a factor, I can get the boat to run OK on top of the waves by running close to 40 mph. But getting there through irregular washing machine waves starting about 8 miles out is no fun. The only time we get swells is when there is a big storm happening on the other side of the Gulf. Under these rare conditions, we have the typical swell plus wind wave situation similar to the Pacific. But the swells never get as big except during hurricanes.

 

[Gradywhiteonthehorizon]

Anybody mentioned weight yet? I trailer boat and usually keep my 92g tank around half full. I see a massive difference in fuel milage due to weight. I can get 3.5 mpg on the fuel management gauge if I'm light on gas, 1/4 tank with family. If I fill it up and am camping/fishing with 4 guys. I get below 2 mpg.

At a half tank with 2 people and fishing I can count on 2.9 mpg trimmed well. That's where I like to keep it if I can for short fishing trips in Puget Sound. Gas is heavy! (any liquid really ) Added bonus is I'm burning most of my gas, not storing old gas then topping off.

 

[Gradywhiteonthehorizon]

There are a lot of variables to speed and fuel use. What pitch prop are you using? I think your engine has 2:1 gearbox, going by the rpm and speed looks like 17. The 4.2 Yamaha has 1.75:1 . My boat will do about 33 mph at 4000 rpm with 17" pitch prop. The 4.2 yam has a lot more down low torque than the 3.3 Yam and 3.6 Honda hence the gear ratio.
It depends on the load you have on the boat and the conditions of the sea. I don't know about yours but my boat weighs 6000 when going fishing plus 3 maybe 4 persons, close to 7000 lbs all up.
I don't go by the trim gauge, I trim the leg as required and same with the tabs, mostly used to level the boat. Heading out to sea I trim in until the bow slices the water somewhat so the boat doesn't jump much out of the water. Following sea I trim up to have the bow very high so i don't bury it in the next low as I overtake the waves . I never bother to trim in when taking off, the engine has more than enough grunt out of the hole. I never drive for economy, I know I hold enough fuel (125 gal ) so I drive to get there quick and spend more time fishing. My fuel use is average on fishing trips that may include heading out against wind and current, sometimes we drop at 1200-1500 feet and hold the boat on the spot with the engine . . I then may troll a few hours at 6-8 knts and then come back . I don't take much notice on instant use as that can vary from zero to 1 kn mile per lt.
I drive at a speed as high as possible without breaking my back. You can't compare this with a leisurely stroll in the bay or somewhat protected waters without powerful waves .

 

[Gradywhiteonthehorizon]

A lot of variables for all us. I’ll be spending some time when I get back to see where I’m at. It’ll vary. I need to keep a mental or have a written log. 1/3 ,1/3 ,1/3. That’ll work. It is interesting to see the variations.

 

[wrxhoon]

Doc,
The fact that you run a jack plate makes heaps of difference in calm water on both speed and fuel burn. In my case it would't be as useful because going up and down waves the prop will come out of the water and when that happens it is quite easy to snap a prop shaft when the prop bites again and I don't use it in calm water.
I spin a 17" pitch, I get 5900-6000 on flat water trimmed out . I need the mid range torque to go over the hills otherwise she will bog down. I would have thought your engine has more torque than 3.3 ( actually 3.4, 3352 cc) . Honda have long stroke that should give you more torque . Your engine is not unlike the 3.5 lt engine in the Accord, she is slightly stroked . The 4.2 is square 96x96mm, same block as 3.3 without steel sleeves so you get 2 mm bigger bore and she is stroked, 3.3 is short stroke .
I know my engine has 381 nm , not sure what the Honda makes, outboard manufacturers don't like to publish torque specs.
If I was to re-power I would go for 300hp Merc V8.

 

[PNW_Drifter]

Great info on this thread! Lots of numbers!

 

[Doc Stressor]

The Honda has a lot less torque at the low and mid-range rpm than either Yamaha. The variable valve lift doesn't shift over to the high lobes until way up in the rpm range. The engine came with a 17" prop, but I had to re-pitch it for just the reason you describe: I needed more torque to get over the waves at low speed. By running at higher rpm at 20-22 mph in a bad sea I am closer to the torque peak.

You would think that the Honda would have more midrange torque than the older Yamaha, but that is not the case. It seems to be tuned (or tunes itself) toward the top end. My old F250 would pop the boat right up from a standing start. You could feel the variable valve timing open things up at about 3800 rpm with close to full throttle. The Honda doesn't do that.

I don't have a hydraulic jack plate since I only run offshore. I got a manually adjustable one to gain the advantage of the setback and the ability to set the engine height just right. I keep it set a bit deeper than it probably could run because of concerns about blowing out in bad seas.

The specs on the Mercury naturally aspirated V8 look great. But there have been reliability problems with blown lower units and water intrusion. I'd wait a few years until they get things straightened out as they did with the Optimax and older Verado engines.

 

[wrxhoon]

My engine is fitted as per factory, I could easily go up one hole, the reason I don't is because when she goes over the crest of a wave she will probably surface. I would definitely lift it if I was boating on lesser seas.
I had a 250 optimax on my previous 228, installed it in 2011, never had any probs but like you said by then they had them sorted out.
I'm well aware of the water intrusion on the V6's and V8's , for some reason Mercs are not as good as Yamaha's in keeping dry under the cowling. They recalled them here to rectify the problem .
I like the way they perform as I have been on two boats one with a single 300 and the other a 250, both F/G Aussie made, most fishing boats here are plate aluminum nowdays, a bit lighter requiring less power and better fuel economy, fuel is more expensive here.
I'm not going to re-power anytime soon and even i wanted I wouldn't do it just yet, I would wait until this Covid 19 is under control.
I thought you had hydraulic jack plate, even a manual one you can adjust it on the day to suit the conditions .
I have been on a boat with the 3.3 Yamaha , he re-powered with a 4.2 about 4 years ago. On his boat it made a lot of difference but then again props can make a huge difference so you never know exactly why.

 

[Doc Stressor]

It’s interesting that Mercury has done a recall in Australia. Here in the states they are denying there is a problem and turning down warranty claims.

 

[luckydude]

Just came back from fishing.

3600 rpm is about 26-27mph at about 2.6mpg.

The new prop is maybe better, I can stay on plane at 22, not so much below that.

Full throttle with a pretty full gas tank and me and my son, we hit 45mph. Grady says 48, whatever, close enough.

There has been a lot of discussion about engine trim, I trim it all the way forward in our seas. The only time it made sense to trim it back was when it was flat enough to go 45.

You guys who are saying I'll stuff the bow, the bow was 2+ feet above the ocean the whole time, do you just have a more square ocean?

 

[wrxhoon]

Marine Power International Pty Ltd — Mercury V6 FourStroke (175-225 HP) outboard engine & Mercury V8 Racing model (200-300HP) outboard engine

www.productsafety.gov.au

We have tough consumer laws here now, came in around 2011 I think.
It doesn't make any difference if in warranty period or not. The product or service has to be fit for the purpose and last a reasonable time .Some one from our club had a 250 yamaha (4.2) bought new 2013, out of warranty , a piston picked up and the rod went through the block requiring a new power head . Yamaha denied responsibility, long story short but a few threatening letters later they replaced the power head no charge. The engine had 1800 hours at the time and serviced as per Yamaha specs ( very important to keep warranty).
If this engine was sold new to him before the new consumer law Yamaha wouldn't pay anything.
What it comes down to , a reasonable person would expect the engine to last more than 1800 hours and more than 5 years without a major fault.

"It’s interesting that Mercury has done a recall in Australia. Here in the states they are denying there is a problem and turning down warranty claims".

They need a class action if that's the case USA is the litigation capital ......

 

[wrxhoon]

Just came back from fishing.

3600 rpm is about 26-27mph at about 2.6mpg.

The new prop is maybe better, I can stay on plane at 22, not so much below that.

Full throttle with a pretty full gas tank and me and my son, we hit 45mph. Grady says 48, whatever, close enough.

There has been a lot of discussion about engine trim, I trim it all the way forward in our seas. The only time it made sense to trim it back was when it was flat enough to go 45.

You guys who are saying I'll stuff the bow, the bow was 2+ feet above the ocean the whole time, do you just have a more square ocean?

Our engine gets the best fuel consumption at about 3500-3600. I never drive at that RPM , weather permitting well I'm over 4000 and if I can't be over 4000 constantly I will be on and off and that kills fuel economy more than anything else and if that is not enough going uphills kills it too.
I can get over 40 knts at full song and close to 6000 RPM with a 3 blade 17" pitch prop. When I get around I will try Enertia 17" and 18" . I have a hub kit on order from USA as I don't have one to suit Merc props on Yamaha engines . I think the only difference is the trust washer but as I wasn't sure I ordered the full kit.

 

[RussGW270]

Really informative conversation, no matter the input.

R

 

[Doc Stressor]

luckydude, how high is your engine mounted? From what you have been describing, it sounds like yours may be mounted too high. There is no way that I can get much over 32 mph with my engine tucked all the way in. My jack plate setback is only 5", which is not comparable to the bracket on a 228, but I find it hard to understand how you can run with your engine trimmed all the way in.

What hole is used for mounting? Could they possibly have used wedges when they mounted your engine?

 

[glacierbaze]

I thought the same, but re-read, and I think he said he trimmed it up running 45 in the flat water.

 

[magicalbill]

Lucky:

Where are you running your tabs at while running thru these swells? I haven't read anything about tab application thru this discussion.

I also want to clarify terms. When you say you trim "All The Way Forward" I assume you mean trimming the engine IN. This is called Negative Trim. When you say "Trim It Back" or bringing the engine up, that's Positive Trim.

If you are utilizing your tabs already, I ask pardon. I just haven't seen any reference to them and they are a critical part of this scenario.

There are LED indicators on your tab switches allowing you to monitor the tab position while at the helm. Once on plane, depress the toggle switches and your bow will go down, ultimately much lower than negative trim can make it go.

As you likely know, it's kind of counter-intuitive; Depressing the starboard toggle will deploy the port tab and vice-versa. Use them separately to level the boat, thereby counteracting a quartering wind on the bow or a passenger who ate too many Big Macs in the seat beside you.

This will be a "feel" thing. Not unlike everything else on your boat, it will taking some fiddling & experimenting.

I think they could be your New Best Friends in this case. Here's why.

Deploying both tabs to significantly lower the bow will accomplish the same thing your doing with your engine trim, only more effectively. Calling the moves from my desk chair here in front of the computer screen, I suggest a starting point described below.

Once on plane, bring your Yam up to where it shows 3 bars on your trim gauge. This way, your not running full negative trim and putting more wear than is needed on your engine as Doc Stressor has mentioned.

Then deploy the tabs, separately and together to keep the running attitude level until you've significantly lowered the nose to compensate for existing sea state on that particular day.

I could make my 232 Gulfstream stay on plane at 18 MPH utilizing tabs & trim. This is not apples-to-apples as I had twins, but I think you should be able to get her down to 20MPH doing what I described above.

In a nutshell..let the tabs do the work. And, If I'm going over plowed ground here, forgive me. I thought it worth mentioning.

 

[luckydude]

luckydude, how high is your engine mounted? From what you have been describing, it sounds like yours may be mounted too high. There is no way that I can get much over 32 mph with my engine tucked all the way in. My jack plate setback is only 5", which is not comparable to the bracket on a 228, but I find it hard to understand how you can run with your engine trimmed all the way in.

What hole is used for mounting? Could they possibly have used wedges when they mounted your engine?

So not to be Mr Idiot, but I am, how do I know how high my engine is mounted? I can go put it down and get you where it is relative to the keel if that helps.

I sort of wonder if my trimmed in/forward isn't as far as your guys boats. People keep talking about stuffing the bow, I trim all the way forward and my bow is 2 feet out of the water. If I trim back I can raise it another 2 feet.

 

[luckydude]

Lucky:

Where are you running your tabs at while running thru these swells? I haven't read anything about tab application thru this discussion.

I also want to clarify terms. When you say you trim "All The Way Forward" I assume you mean trimming the engine IN. This is called Negative Trim. When you say "Trim It Back" or bringing the engine up, that's Positive Trim.

If you are utilizing your tabs already, I ask pardon. I just haven't seen any reference to them and they are a critical part of this scenario.

There are LED indicators on your tab switches allowing you to monitor the tab position while at the helm. Once on plane, depress the toggle switches and your bow will go down, ultimately much lower than negative trim can make it go.

As you likely know, it's kind of counter-intuitive; Depressing the starboard toggle will deploy the port tab and vice-versa. Use them separately to level the boat, thereby counteracting a quartering wind on the bow or a passenger who ate too many Big Macs in the seat beside you.

This will be a "feel" thing. Not unlike everything else on your boat, it will taking some fiddling & experimenting.

I think they could be your New Best Friends in this case. Here's why.

Deploying both tabs to significantly lower the bow will accomplish the same thing your doing with your engine trim, only more effectively. Calling the moves from my desk chair here in front of the computer screen, I suggest a starting point described below.

Once on plane, bring your Yam up to where it shows 3 bars on your trim gauge. This way, your not running full negative trim and putting more wear than is needed on your engine as Doc Stressor has mentioned.

Then deploy the tabs, separately and together to keep the running attitude level until you've significantly lowered the nose to compensate for existing sea state on that particular day.

I could make my 232 Gulfstream stay on plane at 18 MPH utilizing tabs & trim. This is not apples-to-apples as I had twins, but I think you should be able to get her down to 20MPH doing what I described above.

In a nutshell..let the tabs do the work. And, If I'm going over plowed ground here, forgive me. I thought it worth mentioning.

When I say in/forward I mean trim the engine as far towards the bow as it will go and that is the position where it pushes the bow down.

On tabs, I've only used them to level the boat, I've not tried to push the bow down with them, the engine seems to do that well enough.

I'm listening (you have no idea how much I appreciate this forum and your wisdom, I do, and I'm listening). So next outing, I'll try 3 bars and try the tabs.

I will tell you that I tried over and over on this last outing to trim the engine back and lift the bow, every time it just beat us up. And the difference in MPG was not that much, maybe .2 at best. I'll happily get less MPG if the ride is better.

I'll try the tabs. Thanks.