Nautical Miles/ 228 Seafarer

[Doc Stressor]

Look at the upper pair of mounting bolts attaching your engine to the bracket. Which of the 4 pairs of holes on the engine mount are used? The second set of holes is typically used. Look and see if there is any type of spacer (wedge) between the engine mount and the transom bracket. Or you could post a picture.

 

[magicalbill]

I'm kind of throwing a dart at the wall when I say start with 3 bars on the trim gauge. It is just a starting point, and the differing sea state will change what you do from trip-to-trip.

THIS IS IMPORTANT!. As mentioned, you'll find that the bow will drop much further deploying the tabs than just using trim, like you've done up 'till now. This introduces a real danger of submarining, or stuffing the bow into a wave, either in a following or headsea. You haven't had this issue before, I realize, but the tabs will put that bow down low enough that it could happen now. Be extra alert when experimenting and adjusting the tabs underway. Drop the tabs in small increments and observe the result. Even in the low 20's things happen fast, seas can sneak up on you, and the Pacific could come over the nose in an instant. You have become my on-line friend and I continue to enjoy your journey. Please be careful.

It is not an efficient running attitude. You have introduced drag from the tabs and you have more strake in the water, therefore creating more drag than if she was trimmed out creating more air underneath.

It's a tradeoff, (as with Everything Boating,) but given some time spent by you dialing it in, you should lose a little MPG and gain a softer ride. Your looking for a sweet spot where the engine's not working as hard, but the bow is still lower than with full negative trim.

Your out there often and I've never been in the Pacific, but we both know there's a point where nothing does any good and a 22 ft Seafarer should just stay in. On the days where it's tolerable, I still say utilizing tabs to drop the nose should help.

 

[luckydude]

Look at the upper pair of mounting bolts attaching your engine to the bracket. Which of the 4 pairs of holes on the engine mount are used? The second set of holes is typically used. Look and see if there is any type of spacer (wedge) between the engine mount and the transom bracket. Or you could post a picture.

If top is 1 and bottom is 4, they used 2, 2nd from the top.
It's mounted flush with the bracket, no spacer. Do I need to take a square out there to see if the bracket is at 90 degrees?

 

[luckydude]

I'm kind of throwing a dart at the wall when I say start with 3 bars on the trim gauge. It is just a starting point, and the differing sea state will change what you do from trip-to-trip.

THIS IS IMPORTANT!. As mentioned, you'll find that the bow will drop much further deploying the tabs than just using trim, like you've done up 'till now. This introduces a real danger of submarining, or stuffing the bow into a wave, either in a following or headsea. You haven't had this issue before, I realize, but the tabs will put that bow down low enough that it could happen now. Be extra alert when experimenting and adjusting the tabs underway. Drop the tabs in small increments and observe the result. Even in the low 20's things happen fast, seas can sneak up on you, and the Pacific could come over the nose in an instant. You have become my on-line friend and I continue to enjoy your journey. Please be careful.

It is not an efficient running attitude. You have introduced drag from the tabs and you have more strake in the water, therefore creating more drag than if she was trimmed out creating more air underneath.

It's a tradeoff, (as with Everything Boating,) but given some time spent by you dialing it in, you should lose a little MPG and gain a softer ride. Your looking for a sweet spot where the engine's not working as hard, but the bow is still lower than with full negative trim.

Your out there often and I've never been in the Pacific, but we both know there's a point where nothing does any good and a 22 ft Seafarer should just stay in. On the days where it's tolerable, I still say utilizing tabs to drop the nose should help.

First of all, I love being your on-line friend. I have to look through my posts but I'm pretty sure you are the guy I gave kudos to for well thought out and pleasant replies on this forum. So refreshing when compared to places like THT. So I'm honored and I'll do my best to not let you down. I really do like it, I made my kids and wife read your post. If you get to the Santa Cruz/San Jose area, you have your own private 1 bedroom guest house (almost 2 bedroom, there is a futon in the living room so you can sleep 2 unrelated adults there, or even 2 couples there in a pinch). Then we could be in real life friends.

I'll experiment more with the tabs and report back after the next trip.

In your opinion what are the various X feet @ Y period that you think are too much for the Seafarer? I've been out in 10' @ 12s in 20.5 foot Triumph and that just sucked, I don't ever want to do that again.

 

[magicalbill]

Thanks once again for the kind words in the previous posts and now. They are much appreciated.

RE: Visit:

If the World ever flips right-side up again and travel becomes safer, I may take you up on your generous invite. I have never been to CA or seen the Pacific there. The furthest West I've been is New Mexico when I filled in for a country band who's drummer quit so his wife wouldn't divorce him. It was a spur-of-the-moment gig and we weren't out there for more than a week or two. It would be neat to travel to your coast and do it in a leisurely manner rather than having to learn a whole show with headphones on in the back seat of a Suburban en route. It sounds like much more fun to take a boat ride in your Seafarer than to play Garth Brooks tunes for the thousandth time.Thanks for the offer..you never know.

RE: Waves:

I'm embarrassed to say I'm not quite sure what "X feet @ Y period" means. (I flunked algebra1 my sophomore year...)
Even if I knew, I'm not going to be of much help on this question, as I have no experience boating in the Pacific. As discussed before, it's a whole other World than our Gulf of Mexico. I try to be careful and give real fact-based answers to questions, and not speculate.

In the Gulf, I can say with reasonable certainty that 2-3 footers are the limit of comfort. In those conditions, propelled by 15kt+ winds, the Seafarer will pound and take spray, and the Captain is wishing he was Home Already. In the Pacific, I simply have no experienced-based knowledge, because there are other Factors at play.

As you know, wave period is the game-changer out there. Your already getting an idea of what your boat will do from your previous trips. Get the intervals far enough apart, and you can crest some pretty big rollers. Factor in surface wind chop running counter to the groundswell and it gets dicier. I can't just say, "it'll take 6 footers "because the wave period comes into play and is different on different days. Your judgment and skill level are the tools you must go by. (See Quote In Next Paragraph..)

"If it seems too rough, it probably is." Go with your gut..it's a 22 foot boat in the Largest Of Oceans. So far, you've had a blast and are learning more about the boat every trip. As you get more seat time, you will be able to expand your trips and you'll learn 100 little nuances to make the ride better and safer.

Sorry, I wish I could get a little more specific. Keep doing what your doing. it's working and your having fun. That's the Goal and your hitting it.

 

[glacierbaze]

I think the X and Y coordinates are the wave height and period. I really would like to see a video running 10ft x 12sec on plane.

 

[luckydude]

Thanks once again for the kind words in the previous posts and now. They are much appreciated.

RE: Visit:

If the World ever flips right-side up again and travel becomes safer, I may take you up on your generous invite. I have never been to CA or seen the Pacific there. The furthest West I've been is New Mexico when I filled in for a country band who's drummer quit so his wife wouldn't divorce him. It was a spur-of-the-moment gig and we weren't out there for more than a week or two. It would be neat to travel to your coast and do it in a leisurely manner rather than having to learn a whole show with headphones on in the back seat of a Suburban en route. It sounds like much more fun to take a boat ride in your Seafarer than to play Garth Brooks tunes for the thousandth time.Thanks for the offer..you never know.

RE: Waves:

I'm embarrassed to say I'm not quite sure what "X feet @ Y period" means. (I flunked algebra1 my sophomore year...)
Even if I knew, I'm not going to be of much help on this question, as I have no experience boating in the Pacific. As discussed before, it's a whole other World than our Gulf of Mexico. I try to be careful and give real fact-based answers to questions, and not speculate.

In the Gulf, I can say with reasonable certainty that 2-3 footers are the limit of comfort. In those conditions, propelled by 15kt+ winds, the Seafarer will pound and take spray, and the Captain is wishing he was Home Already. In the Pacific, I simply have no experienced-based knowledge, because there are other Factors at play.

As you know, wave period is the game-changer out there. Your already getting an idea of what your boat will do from your previous trips. Get the intervals far enough apart, and you can crest some pretty big rollers. Factor in surface wind chop running counter to the groundswell and it gets dicier. I can't just say, "it'll take 6 footers "because the wave period comes into play and is different on different days. Your judgment and skill level are the tools you must go by. (See Quote In Next Paragraph..)

"If it seems too rough, it probably is." Go with your gut..it's a 22 foot boat in the Largest Of Oceans. So far, you've had a blast and are learning more about the boat every trip. As you get more seat time, you will be able to expand your trips and you'll learn 100 little nuances to make the ride better and safer.

Sorry, I wish I could get a little more specific. Keep doing what your doing. it's working and your having fun. That's the Goal and your hitting it.

On the kind words, they are earned, you did that. I think you are the goal posts for how people should be on this forum, you know stuff and you share it without belittling people, it's super cool. I get that it might feel a little strange to get praise for that, I'm from Wisconsin, it is very cold there so there is sort of a herd mentality that makes you want to take care of other people. I do that in California and people give me praise and I just cringe because I just think everyone should do that. I suspect you think everyone should be like you. I wish they were. And I love this forum and I'll fight to make people be like you, you are a great example.

On the offer, it stands of course, and your post makes me more interested in meeting you, sounds like you have had an interesting life. We are stuck here for the time being, I suspect for at least another year and maybe two. New Zealand is our goal and they are closed. We'll see. In the mean time, if you get out here, heck yeah, come hang out, I'll put you on some fish. Still learning but I have yet to get skunked.

So X @ Y is how we talk about the ocean here. It is X feet swells at Y seconds, swells @ period. Around here, if X == Y, we call that a square ocean and nobody wants to be out in a square ocean. wrx talked about 3@2, I can't imagine stuff like that. Our ocean, when I think it is good, like fantastic, is 3@9 or 3@10. That's as close to flat as I'll ever see, tiny swells far apart. 3@3 is dramatically worse. You don't need algebra to get it, 3 feet is nothing but if you get them every 3 seconds when standing still, the wall of the wave is steep. That's true for any value of X. 10@10 means a steep wall and all the discussion of stuffing a bow becomes very real in a square ocean. The X@Y is what is happening in the ocean, it is not what you are experiencing when moving.

My normal for going out is 4@8 or 5@10. That's just normal around here. If we see 3@reasonable, yeah, going out.

 

[luckydude]

I think the X and Y coordinates are the wave height and period. I really would like to see a video running 10ft x 12sec on plane.

We didn't run on plane at that, far from it. It was a shit day. I take Dramamine to not be seasick, I'm a wuss, I take it the night before and in the morning. I took 4 more on that day when it was 10@12. And still was green. Awful day, never want to do that again. We had waves coming over the transom into the cockpit. No thanks.

 

[magicalbill]

Lucky;

I continue to be humbled, thank you.

I just looked at a webcam out of Misson Beach. Light winds and what looks to be 3-4 footers coming in lazy sets of 3 & 4 at a time. One could easily boat in that.

Interesting how the Pacific has a completely different pulse than the Gulf or Lake Michigan. Sheer size and underwater topography has a lot to do with it, I'm sure. Another topic for another time.

One more thought on your tabs: if possible work with them in an area of calm water somewhere..A bay or something? With a relatively calm surface you can really hone in on what-tab-does-what. Plus you can deploy them fully and see just how far the bow goes down without any consequences. Remember, if you drop one tab all the way while leaving the other fully retracted, your rig will heel noticeably..be prepared if you haven't already experienced that. it's no big deal, but it will get your attention.

 

[seasick]

On one of my 'yachts' a 25 footer, I discovered during the first full speed runs that deploying one tab all the way down at cruise speed results in an extreme lean over to that side. It is so severe that you think you are going to roll over, The boat turns hard in the direction of the down tab and the opposite motor looses bite. That makes the boat turn even harder as the other motor bites. The first time it was pretty scary and the only way to steer out is to reduce throttle a lot. The moral is that on that hull, too much tab is not a good thing.

 

[luckydude]

On one of my 'yachts' a 25 footer, I discovered during the first full speed runs that deploying one tab all the way down at cruise speed results in an extreme lean over to that side. It is so severe that you think you are going to roll over, The boat turns hard in the direction of the down tab and the opposite motor looses bite. That makes the boat turn even harder as the other motor bites. The first time it was pretty scary and the only way to steer out is to reduce throttle a lot. The moral is that on that hull, too much tab is not a good thing.

I've done something similar by accident. I was trying to level the boat and I expected an instant response from the tabs so I held one down too long. I'm single engine so it wasn't quite as dramatic but it was up there. I've learned to do a little tab, wait to see what that does, repeat.

 

[luckydude]

It's a tradeoff, (as with Everything Boating,) but given some time spent by you dialing it in, you should lose a little MPG and gain a softer ride. Your looking for a sweet spot where the engine's not working as hard, but the bow is still lower than with full negative trim.

The engineer in me wants to pick at this a bit to understand better.

That last quoted sentence is what I want to understand. Trimming the engine forward makes it work harder because the bow is down, more of the hull is in the water? Yes or is there more to it? Because trimming it back and then pushing the bow down with the tabs seems like the engine would have to work just as hard or harder, there more of the hull in the water because the bow is lower.

I'm trying to figure out what is sweet about the sweet spot. Is the ride going to be even better than full negative trim?

Also, with full negative trim, the bow pulpit is probably 2 feet out of the water, it's never been remotely close to stuffing it. But, stuffing it is really going to be a function of {how down the bow is, how big the swells are, and swell period} right? If I am in 4 foot swells at 10 seconds, super hard to stuff the bow no matter what I do, right? 5@7 might be close enough to be more likely to stuff the bow?

 

[magicalbill]

Lucky:

The answer to this is not one I can explain in a short format. I will send you a Private Message out of respect for everyone else on the forum. I don't want to write novels on here and I have trouble with short, simple answers, as you've noticed.

 

[wrxhoon]

When you trim the motor in you put the bow down so more boat in the water = more resistance but at the same time you have more leg in the water as well so you have extra resistance there too. If you use the trim pads to force the bow down, you only have the boat resistance the leg is higher so it doesn't add the the resistance, actually the leg is somewhat higher because the tabs lift the rear .
I don't like to use tabs down or much trim down on following seas, this is the danger of the bow diving into the next wave. As you come of the top of a wave going downhill the boat picks up speed depending on the size of the wave you could go from 30 mph to 40 mph, if you are trimmed in, that's when you could dive in the next low .
Going head on this is less likely to happen so you trim in and the fact the boat has variable deadrise the sharp bow cuts the waves for a more comfortable ride especially if the boat is flat ( not leaning on either side ) .Even if you have short periods and waves stand up as you come down and the boat is level slices the water and you don't get the big bang that breaks your back.
You will have to keep trying different settings and eventually you will work out what suits you best.
The Pacific is much different the conditions in the Gulf or even the open Atlantic, you can ride big rollers say 8 footers very easy if there isn't much wind to chop them up . Combine big swell with wind and you get short periods standing up waves and you can't fish . I find wind is the biggest problem going out fishing not swell.

 

[luckydude]

Lucky:

The answer to this is not one I can explain in a short format. I will send you a Private Message out of respect for everyone else on the forum. I don't want to write novels on here and I have trouble with short, simple answers, as you've noticed.

I appreciate your sentiment but I think the forum, at least us new guys, might stumble across this and want to see what you know. If I were you I'd post here.

 

[Divajean]

I appreciate your sentiment but I think the forum, at least us new guys, might stumble across this and want to see what you know. If I were you I'd post here.

Yes please continue, never had tabs before, I'm taking notes to understand how all this works, like lucky said I appreciate all the wisdom

 

[magicalbill]

Already sent your Private Message. Let me know if you got it. Heck, I'm happy to put it out there for all to see; I'm just a bit self-conscious that I talk too much sometimes.

Basically, I wrote what Hoon covered above, just described differently.

 

[magicalbill]

Yes please continue, never had tabs before, I'm taking notes to understand how all this works, like lucky said I appreciate all the wisdom

I'm sorry..I guess I should've posted it here. Is there a way to lift it from a Private Message to the forum? I'm clueless about computer-stuff.

If not, I'll re-type it tomorrow if you'd like to read it. Thanks for your interest; I wouldn't necessarily call it wisdom; just a procedure that helps with tab adjustments and the resulting effects.

 

[glacierbaze]

You know how to copy/paste, don't you? If not, anybody within arms reach can show you in 30 seconds. You don't have to re-type anything anymore.
Or, with your permission, LuckyDude can c/p it as a new post.

 

[Pighunter]

I'm sorry..I guess I should've posted it here. Is there a way to lift it from a Private Message to the forum? I'm clueless about computer-stuff.

If not, I'll re-type it tomorrow if you'd like to read it. Thanks for your interest; I wouldn't necessarily call it wisdom; just a procedure that helps with tab adjustments and the resulting effects.

High light the PM Push Control + C then repost it and push control + V