Sailfish 272 with waterlogged foam?

DennisG01

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Thanks for taking the time to summarize, Duncan. I can appreciate the thought process you're going through to try and figure this out. But, no, the engines and fuel are NOT ruled out. And, from what I understand about prop slippage, you do NOT have prop slippage - you simply have something holding you back. That thing can be an engine issue -- such as down a cylinder - you confirmed compression, but what about spark? That thing could be a fuel quality/supply issue. That thing could be a dirty hull - it doesn't take much at all to lose the speed you're talking about.

I still see nothing, at all, that points to wasting your money on a short haul/weigh. If water got into the anchor locker it would either drain right out (if your locker has a drain) or drain to the bilge and (eventually) out the garboard drain.
 
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Ekea

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With it being both engines - for it to be prop slip, would not the same change have to have happened to both props?

It is most certainly not weight, as several of us have pointed out. If there was so much extra weight to impact performace to this extent, the scuppers would be below water.

Unless there is a ton of growth on the bottom, this still feels like a fuel issue. It happens to both engines. Has to be something far more likely than both props going bad after storage.

Fuel restriction issues will sometimes cause a motor to put out limited power.
if it was a fuel issue, why would he only get 28 mph at 5k rpm.

prop slip doesnt have to come from bad props. if you tie off to a dock, run at wot, you are going to calculate 100% prop slip and you likely wont hit full rated rpm unless you are high power with a small prop. consider the dock to be a resistance, albiet, a huge load that the boat cant move. hull growth is another resistance, substantial, but not like tying off to a dock. the growth would put his resistance somewhere between being tied off to a dock, and no resistance at all.
 

kirk a

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if it was a fuel issue, why would he only get 28 mph at 5k rpm.

prop slip doesnt have to come from bad props. if you tie off to a dock, run at wot, you are going to calculate 100% prop slip and you likely wont hit full rated rpm unless you are high power with a small prop. consider the dock to be a resistance, albiet, a huge load that the boat cant move. hull growth is another resistance, substantial, but not like tying off to a dock. the growth would put his resistance somewhere between being tied off to a dock, and no resistance at all.

The motor may not be getting sufficient fuel to do any more than the 5k. The restriction prevents it from going full throttle, and prevents it from getting full power from a given RPM particularly under load. Ever been down a cylinder - similar performance can result.
 
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DennisG01

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if it was a fuel issue, why would he only get 28 mph at 5k rpm.

prop slip doesnt have to come from bad props. if you tie off to a dock, run at wot, you are going to calculate 100% prop slip and you likely wont hit full rated rpm unless you are high power with a small prop. consider the dock to be a resistance, albiet, a huge load that the boat cant move. hull growth is another resistance, substantial, but not like tying off to a dock. the growth would put his resistance somewhere between being tied off to a dock, and no resistance at all.
Prop slip (again from my minimal knowledge on this subject) is more about a "mis-matched" prop for the application/boat design - not "bad props". In this case, props haven't changed so they're not mis-matched.

But, yes, fuel quality/supply can and does result in this exact issue he's having. But it's only one possible explanation - that's why the things suggested above need to be done... in other words, proper diagnosis.
 
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Ekea

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Prop slip (again from my minimal knowledge on this subject) is more about a "mis-matched" prop for the application/boat design - not "bad props". In this case, props haven't changed so they're not mis-matched.

But, yes, fuel quality/supply can and does result in this exact issue he's having. But it's only one possible explanation - that's why the things suggested above need to be done... in other words, proper diagnosis.
if the boat has growth, the boat has changed and the prop is now not matched to the boat with growth
 

Ekea

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The motor may not be getting sufficient fuel to do any more than the 5k. The restriction prevents it from going full throttle, and prevents it from getting full power from a given RPM particularly under load. Ever been down a cylinder - similar performance can result.
that still doesnt address why he is only getting 28 mph at 5k. if extrapolated, that would only give him 34 mph at 6k (he used to get 48 at 5800). something is physically holding him back.

it doesnt matter if the fuel is good or not for a given rpm. if the motor is turning a given rpm, then the prop is turning a given rpm (unless spun hub). if the prop is turing a given rpm and nothing else changes, the boat will go the same speed. i am willing to bet that before this problem started, if he was at a fast cruise at 5k, he would be going more than 28 mph.
 
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DennisG01

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if the boat has growth, the boat has changed and the prop is now not matched to the boat with growth
Well, sure, in the strictest sense of the word. But this is not how prop slip is used, right? Meaning, it's irrelevant to the issue. Or, how does calculating prop slip HELP him figure out the problem in this case? It's sort of a useless thing, right?
 

Ekea

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Well, sure, in the strictest sense of the word. But this is not how prop slip is used, right? Meaning, it's irrelevant to the issue. Or, how does calculating prop slip HELP him figure out the problem in this case? It's sort of a useless thing, right?
look at a prop slip calculator. pitch, gear ratio, rpm, and boat speed are the inputs. the out put is prop slip %. if you have the same parameters between 2 boats, except for the boat speed, the prop slip of the slower boat will be higher. if the OP has large drag from a hull with growth, his speed will be slower for the same rpm. the pitch wont change, neither will the gear ratio. the prop slip % will go up.

essentially, his boat is acting like a truck spinning its tires in the mud while still making some headway.

you can mess around with this. put in the OPs previous and current numbers.
 

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It's your money. Obviously we can't convince you that it is not weight that is your issue.

Your assumption that the motors are doing their job is not accurate.

I'm no expert, but anytime I've been in a situation where troubleshooting is needed, rule of thumb is to start with the easiest and most likely, then work to the unlikely and obscure. There are zero signs it is weight. Scupper level, to noted performance differences on other boats between running light and fully loaded.

Pages have been written about fuel issues on boats, particularly with the advent of ethanol fuels, and the long off seasons for boats.
Hi guys - I had an interesting day on Friday and got to the bottom of this and it was the bottom(!). Many of you suggested this but I didn't suspect it because I never had a problem with bottom growth until now. I essentially discovered that Hydrocoat lasts a long time but not forever. I have been just touching up thin parts and the waterline and you can see there are no barnacles there but the whole rest of the hull was totally encrusted. I can't remember when I last repainted the whole hull and last year it was fine but not this year! Others at my yacht club are having problems as well so it must be a bad year for barnacles. A buddy with a big Hatteras said he couldn't even get it to plane so he hired a diver to clean it up.

So, convinced I had waterlogged foam because of my buddy's recent experience, I called a few marinas to see if they could weigh it with their travel lift. They said they could but suggested it would not be accurate enough. They said the the scale was graduated in 1000 lb increments and it could be off by a few thousand pounds. They were all really helpful. Boston Boatworks, said there was a truck scale nearby and suggested hauling the boat with their travel lift, dropping it onto their hydraulic trailer, and driving it to the truck scale. They called that a "long haul" vs a "short haul" and the cost was $21.5/ft ( $580.50). When they lifted it, we saw the bottom was totally encrusted with barnacles. That is visible in the video and photos.

They pressured washed it charging the higher rate ($6.25/ft) for a "heavily fouled bottom." Then they weighed it along with their trailer and large fork truck on the truck scale. The total weight was 40,040 pounds and they subtracted the weight of the hydraulic trailer and fork truck to arrive at a boat weight of 8020 lb which I think is about right for a 272 Sailfish. The dry weight without options is listed at 5500 lb, the motors are 500 lb each and ~50 gallons of fuel is 300 lb so I come up with 6800 lbs. I think I have all the options (hardtop, bow pulpit, microwave, fridge, freshwater system (which was empty), etc. so when that weight is combined with the weight of my tools and other gear, I think I am in the ballpark.

After they dropped me in I could feel the difference as soon as I put it in forward! I attempted a WOT test on the way back but conditions where not ideal. I did manage to get up to 5400 RPM and 38 MPG which is not the old numbers of 5800 RPM and 48 MPG but a whole lot better than 5000 RPM and 28 MPH. The fuel economy was ~1.2MPH which is not as good at the old numbers of 1.4+. I'm wondering if part of that is that bottom still has some residual part of the barnacles still present - the little round circles. You can see that in the photo of the bow. The guys were joking that the barnacle blue is better than superglue or any other manmade glue. I'll try to figure out how to clean that up further in the spring.

Thanks for all the help and suggestions - it is great to be able to tap in to the knowledge base in this community!

Cheers,
Duncan
 

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JJF

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Glad it turned out to not be water logged foam.

Not being a jerk here, but did you not even try to feel along the bottom?

Perhaps now might be a good time to do a full strip of the bottom and start with full redo/refresh of the bottom paint. (Yeah, I love spending OPM.)
 

family affair

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With all sincerity, thank you for posting the problem and solution. Many keyboard cowboys would not do the same, especially when thinking the problem is elsewhere.
I appreciate your contribution. Hopefully you get the rest sorted out soon.
 

DennisG01

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Wow - I'm surprised you got the speed you did with all that! I guess they're small enough and tightly packed together that it "smoothed" things out a bit :)
 

Late Again Grady

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I would suggest that during the off season that you get that girl a proper cleaning (maybe even down to the glass) and some antifoulant paint on it before next season. I'm in brackish water and I can get away with new bottom every other year. Best of luck in the future.
 

Ekea

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im glad it turned out to be the growth. much less of a problem than a soggy boat
 

Duncan

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Glad it turned out to not be water logged foam.

Not being a jerk here, but did you not even try to feel along the bottom?

Perhaps now might be a good time to do a full strip of the bottom and start with full redo/refresh of the bottom paint. (Yeah, I love spending OPM.)
Hi - No I didn't try to feel the bottom because I really didn't expect that to be the problem. The reason I didn't expect it is because I have kept a boat at this yacht club for 32 years and never had a problem with the bottom ever. Live and learn. I have black Hydrocoat over red so I'll try to remove what I can of the black, leave the red, and then apply new black. Then I won't let it go so many seasons before applying a full coat again.

I knew the motors and fuel were fine and had waterlogged foam on my brain because of my buddy's experience with his skiff. He was charged 40 hours just to dig out all the old foam!

Cheers,
Duncan
 
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seasick

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Hi - No I didn't try to feel the bottom because I really didn't expect that to be the problem. The reason I didn't expect it is because I have kept a boat at this yacht club for 32 years and never had a problem with the bottom ever. Live and learn. I have black Hydrocoat over red so I'll try to remove what I can of the black, leave the red, and then apply new black. Then I won't let it go so many seasons before applying a full coat again.

I knew the motors and fuel were fine and had waterlogged foam on my brain because of my buddy's experience with his skiff. He was charged 40 hours just to dig out all the old foam!

Cheers,
Duncan
The biggest factor other than the age of the paint is the water temperature. It has been warm just about everywhere and warm waters encourage hull growth.