Scuppers and engine in water

[Grouper Duper]

My boat is twenty years old, has a hardtop and radio box with a two-stroke motor, and the fuel tank was moved forward. The scupper exits are still half in the water at rest. I don't believe it's a design flaw or a four-stroke issue...it's been that way for a LONG time and has caused no problems whatsoever.

Adding some weight to the bow won't change much, either. I was testing mine for a switch to a four-stroke, and as an extreme weight experiment, went back and sat my 200 pound body on top of my bracket-mounted 225 two-stroke. The difference at the waterline was VERY minimal...MAYBE 1/2 inch. My conclusion was that the additional weight of a four stroke would make hardly any difference at all, even way out on the bracket. I ended up fixing my motor, but when it dies, there will be an F250 on it.

 

[BobP]

This seems like something you just don't want to have vs. it bearing any real consequence. Nothing is going to happen to the deck drains, and even when the anti fouling wears off the gearcase, when you see some hair back there, just get the deck brush and scrub it off every 3 weeks or so. It comes right off. I do it myself.

However even if everything else is prefect, if it bothers you, dump the boat. I know people who have dumped new cars just because the turning radius was too wide and they had to do K turns instead of u turns.

Doesn't really matter, we had another member with a new Grady that had twin or single F350s, and found out same thing and had the same complaint, he posted photos. i advised him to return the boat.

For you it's too late just like him, for others who buy a Grady, new or used, be sure you see the boat and ride the boat in the water. Not the same model, but the exact boat you intend to buy - insist on it. Then you can speak up about it and have a choice of how to proceed, or forever hold your peace. Why make it a shot gun wedding?

As Brain said, Mercs tilts further up, my OMC 200s had a much greater tilt range than my yamaha HPDIs. To compensate for the heavier 4 strokes, Grady should have insisted on their partner Yamaha to design a higher lift, looks like the one side relationship continues instead.

What Grady can do but their navel architects will get heart attacks, is to stand up the transoms more vertical than they are now, no technical reason they need the tilt it has now. My buddy's 25 parker with single F225 on a bracket lifts sky high out of the water. You know why? His bracket angle is more vertical than mine.

Simple enough to implement at no added cost to manufacturing or the buyer. And with Grady being married to yamaha for life, they have no excuse in the world to recommend water jugs instead of changing the transom and bracket tilt angle.

 

[BobP]

And if anybody at Grady HQ is reading this, you can't hide behind water jugs and motor fluid levels any longer.
My buddy's Parker F225 engine sits more horizontal, that's right, it sits more horizontal, so I guess you will have to come up with another line on engine fluids, unless the same engines Yamaha supplied you are different that the ones supplied to Parker ??

You have been outed, found out, so be embarrased and take care of what your engine manufacturer better half refuses to do. Or find another excuse so I can out that one too. I can't wait. Go ahead, make my day!

Reset the transom and bracket tilt angles specs, few will ever notice the change. Get one of those defriberators for the office and an oxygen tank before breaking the new directive to your designers.

And you will become heros to the less informed who think you have leaped tall buildings in a single bound to do it.

Have a nice day at the office!

 

[PA228G]

This post prompted me to pay attention today when I went to the boat - the nosecone and scuppers on my 228G are under water with the OEM Johnson 225 2S. I know I'm light fwd since I don't have a hardtop or an aux tank. When you think of it - it's a pretty tough nav arch problem with so many options.

Nice day on the Bay though ...

 

[Fishtales]

i think it is more related to the yamaha engine versus the hull design. i have about 2" of my f250s in the water on the 300 and had the same thing on my 282. i know a 330 and a 300 with zukes and they are out of the water when pulled up. the yamaha head is too big IMHO.

 

[wlewis]

Sounds like a good reason why GW should offer enigine options, ie lighter 2 stroke E Tecs or Optimaxes.

 

[Brad1]

This seems like something you just don't want to have vs. it bearing any real consequence.

Not so. Anytime there is submerged fitting, there is supposed to be a valve to prevent water from entering the plumbing beyond the fitting. This is an ABYC recommendation. And since the cockpit drain scupper is submerged, the ABYC recommendation is applicable. I have spoken to grady white about this and they agree. They have even offered to send me shut off valves that to attach to the inside of my scupper fittings in order to comply with the ABYC recommendation. But who wants to shut off the scuppers? What if rainwater should start to accumulate on the deck? IMO, the chance of something bad happening due to having the scuppers closed is greater than the chance of a problem occuring due to the scuppers being submerged. None-the-less, with the scuppers submerged, there is water in the hose that connects the deck drain to the scupper. Should that hose fail, the boat will sink.

BTW, this is not a problem that is particular to Grady White. In the marina where I launch my boat in Pennsylvania, there is a twin engine Pursuit WA used by the PA Fish and Boat commision. That boat has twin Evinrudes on a bracket. The scuppers on that boat are entirely underwater.

 

[AquaAddict]

I agree about not putting a shut off valve at the scupper. I have a 24' Offshore with twin 150 evinrudes on an armstrong bracket. My scuppers are underwater. I always check the boat after a hard rain and there is never any standing water on the deck, so the deck drains are doing their job even with the scuppers underwater. That would be my worry if the scuppers had a shut off valve, that rainwater would collect on the deck. Has anyone ever thought about it or actually modified the scuppers. It looks as though the scuppers on my Offshore could actually be raised up enough to get them out of the water and still have enough fall between the deck drain and the scupper to allow water to sufficiently drain off the deck.

 

[MFP]

I spoke with GW the other day about this issue. While I will only provide the highlights, I became convinced that it is not an issue that any of us really need to be concerned about.

Motor tilt varies based on length of transom and engine shaft. The result is that the prop sets at same point below each and every transom when operating. The oil reservoir in the 4 stroke engine limits the amount of tilt that can be placed on the engine. The Parker boat tilts the Yamaha engine completely out of the water because it has a very different design of the hull and performs much differently than a GW hull.

The transom bracket has a zinc anode that protects the bracket and motor from galvanizing.

Weight on the front of the boat probably needs to be more than 500 pounds to have an impact on raising the motor out of the water. With that much weight, the boat performance would decline significantly.

In the "old " day, motors were almost always in the water when tilted back completely. Anti foulant paint is the solution.

The scuppers perform well above or below the water line. Check them for marine growth at least annually.

The ABYC recommendation does not apply since the scuppers are part of the self bailing design of the boat ( I think I got this right but may not be 100% accurate in my wording).

 

[striped bass]

The transom drains under water can cause a serious problem but can be remedied by a little preventive maintenance. The barnacles build up on the inner lip of the bronze outlets and inhibit the water from exiting the cockpit by keeping the rubber flaps from opening so the water can drain. I was washing down my T 225 last week and the water stayed in the cockpit until I discoved that the rubber flaps were being held shut by barnacle build up on the inner lip of the bronze drains. It took me less than 2 minutes to clean out the barnacles and presto the water drained out with no problem. So now I check the bronze drains about once every two or three weeks and avoid the problem. Not a big deal really. But I am glad I found the answer.

 

[Curmudgeon]

I'd be interested to read of a first hand, verified account of a boat sinking because of scupper failure, or lower unit failure because a properly protected unit had 3" in the water. Jeez, folks, let's keep things in perspective ... :?

 

[magicalbill]

As I've posted before, my 232 Gulfstream has the max power, twin 200 4-Strokes.
With full fuel, as it always has when I begin a trip, the scuppers are barely underwater and the engines "nosecones" are submerged when tilted up.

None of this matters..The scuppers drain efficently, and i just wipe the bottom parts of the lower units off when they get a scumline.

I trailer mine, so I guess a closer watch on the scuppers would be justified if it was in the water 24/7.
Even so, cleaning the scuppers out every once-and-awhile would keep them from clogging.

I don't think this is a big deal....

 

[Brad1]

The ABYC recommendation does not apply since the scuppers are part of the self bailing design of the boat ( I think I got this right but may not be 100% accurate in my wording).

Well then they're telling different stories on their end. In 2005, Jeff Brown specifically told me that that the ABYC recommendation does apply and he offered to send me the shut off valves free of charge.

 

[BobP]

Brad1, I don't think it's a good idea to install shut off valves in overboard deck drains, Fay's rain won't care for it since you will be leaving the valves closed, I expect, when you are not using the boat?
Guess where all that heavy rainwater is going to go instead?
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If there is access to both ends of the hose, thru hull and deck fitting, and the double clamps, then the remedy is periodic inpection. If anyone doesn't know how to evaluate this simple setup, hire a professional. I have 100% access to the 4 deck drains on my model.

If you don't have access to the entire pass on your model, then you can't inspect what's going on so a valve may make some sense, but watch out for Fay's next of kin. Water is very heavy, heavier than those 4 stokers!

I've been on boats that had deck drains well above the water line, however, when I stepped back there a tide rushed in!

My deck drains are buried while at sea, not a drop reaches the deck, no matter where we fish from, three across the stern.

Nice work Grady HQ - on the 1992 Sailfish!

 

[ElyseM]

i have the same rig as magicbill, probably a little older since my scuppers sit mostly underwater. it's wet slipped so i do keep an eye on it. the bracket, motor mounts and gearcase are all bottom painted. i also had the marina swish a little bottom paint inside the scuppers to prevent growth. i flush out the scuppers after each outing to ensure clear passage and every now and then i check the out flows and clean them out with my finger (usually a little growth). i also inspect the scupper hoses frequently to make sure they are in good condition.

not that i know, but i would guess this is the same preceedures the guys with the multimillion dollar battlewagons go through with below the water line exhaust ports.

ron

 

[Curmudgeon]

.. Jeff Brown specifically told me that that the ABYC recommendation does apply ...

Is it a recommendation or a standard? Makes a big difference in interpretation since Grady says they adhere to ABYC standards.

 

[Brad1]

Brad1, I don't think it's a good idea to install shut off valves in overboard deck drains, Fay's rain won't care for it since you will be leaving the valves closed, I expect, when you are not using the boat?
Guess where all that heavy rainwater is going to go instead?

Thanks Bobp. but already stated the same thing in a previous post.

.. Jeff Brown specifically told me that that the ABYC recommendation does apply ...

Is it a recommendation or a standard? Makes a big difference in interpretation since Grady says they adhere to ABYC standards.

Does it really make a big difference, or is it just semantics? When I spoke with them I believe the term used was "recommendation". Who knows, maybe the ABYC recommends that the manufactorers adhere to their standards. Again, just semantics.

More importantly, it would be interesting to see the actual ABYC standard (or recommendation, whichever it may be) for submerged thru hull fittings . But I believe you have to be a member of the ABYC to even be able to purchase the standards.

 

[Grog]

i flush out the scuppers after each outing to ensure clear passage and every now and then i check the out flows and clean them out with my finger (usually a little growth).
ron

My scuppes used to gather some growth from being partially submerged. Water never came in no matter who was standing back there but growth will slow the outflow which can be a problem if you take on a decent amout of water.

 

[BobP]

Grog, those are 1.5 inch , right? If so, that's very substantial. Perhaps leaves, fish / bait parts, sinkers, may tend to clog them, not marine growth.

After all, they are not intended for clearing a swamped boat.

 

[Grog]

I'm not saying the growth stopped the flow but impeded the flow which can cause problems. Here's a quote from the 25' Sailfish someone posted on E-Bay "This 1994 25’ Grady White Sailfish was submerged in salt water as a result of enough rain water accruing in the stern of the vessel to force the scuppers beneath the waterline subsequently allowing saltwater to backflow into the bilge while batteries were discharged. " There may be some BS as to why it went down but it has (4) 1.5" scuppers.