Update: Leak in Head Discharge Line. West Marine Recommends Replacement with More Flexible Line

[wahoo33417]

On our recent boat trip in our 2007 282, we noticed a slight trickle flowing back down the discharge line after a manual flush. Fortunately, we only use the head to pee, and it is just a trickle, so I could rinse it down to the shower sump. So I put holding tank chemical into the toilet and flushed to get a better idea of just what is leaking and from where. It took a few minutes after a manual flush, but a blue streak of water would flow back down the discharge hose from behind the wall. So this tells me that the hose travels uphill behind the wall and that the leak is at an uphill location.

So I get my trusty Grady manual (pasted below), and I see that there is a vented loop behind that wall. Probably for anti-siphoning purpurses? After trailering 1,500 miles to the Great Lakes, just about anything can vibrate loose, so may a connection to the vent or the vent itself, whatever that looks like.

So before I start drilling exploratory holes making my head look like swiss cheese while looking for this vented loop and suspected leak, I thought I'd ask here if anyone has experienced anything similar. And, if so, was it the vent and how big of an opening did you have to cut out to adequately solve the problem?

Tx, Rob

 

[DennisG01]

I'm not following what you're saying. I don't get the correlation between flushing the head and the discharge hose. They are a part of two different systems.

 

[seasick]

What type of toilet system?
The most common cause for back flow is a worn out joker (duckbill) valve. It is a relatively easy and inexpensive fix. There is a video on the Jabsco web site regarding valve replacement.

 

[glacierbaze]

It's pretty clear that the leak is behind the bulkhead, in the 1 1/2" hose between the toilet and the vented loop, if it's running back down that hose, through the bulkhead . Let's don't get hung up on semantics, on what to call that hose.
I would get in touch with GW tomorrow, and try to pinpoint the location of the connections at the loop. If they can locate it, but can't tell you how to access it, I would start with 5 inch pie plate inspection hatch, get the exact dimensions for the cut out, and start there. If that hole is not sufficient, go up to the next size.

 

[DennisG01]

Let's don't get hung up on semantics, on what to call that hose.

It's confusing, though, because I don't know if he's talking about two different things at the same time and I hate answering something based on a "guess" only to find out later that's not what was meant.

 

[seasick]

What type of toilet system?
The most common cause for back flow is a worn out joker (duckbill) valve. It is a relatively easy and inexpensive fix. There is a video on the Jabsco web site regarding valve replacement.

Ignore my comment I thought it was draining back into the bowl.

 

[wahoo33417]

"Discharge hose" was absolutely a bad choice of words, since that already has a specific meaning in the head system. Glacierblaze is correct, I should have said the 1.5" hose that carries waste away from the toilet and which forms the vented loop behind the wall. And I agree, start small and work my way up to whatever is access port is needed. Might be a 12" x 12" hatch by the time I'm done!

The boat is currently at the Grady dealership racking up some serious labor hours from me hitting some rocks in the dark. damn rocks. They could approximate the location of the loop for me. I could have them fix it at their $140/hour labor rate. But this seems like something I should be able to tackle myself.

I'm assuming that trailering the boat 1500 miles to the Great Lakes vibrated something loose in there, since it occurred immediately upon arrival.

My question here is whether anyone has had occasion to access this point and just what does this vent look like? How is it that it might leak? Or, more likely, are there hose clamps or other form of vent attachment that might simply need redoing?

If no one has had this pleasure, I'll try to post some pics of what I find in there.

Rob

 

[DennisG01]

OK, thanks for the clarification on that!

I don't know your specific model, but in the end that doesn't matter too much. It's pretty much the same thing no matter what boat it is in. Assuming it's the style of vented loop apparatus I would imagine Grady uses... there are three possible leak sources at this piece. The two hose connections where the 1-1/2" hose slips onto the barbs and the actual vent, itself. Typically, these are a one-way type valve and the actual "valve" part is often a small duckbill accessible by removing the screw on cap.

The first thing I'd be doing is looking for an access panel already there (look in person) or look for something else that can be removed to give you access even if it's not an actual "access panel". If there's nothing in the head, then look to the helm side - is there anything that can be removed there to give access? Maybe you can at least get you phone in there close enough to take some video while someone flushes - even if you have to come in from above like through a dash panel. Then you'd at least know what's going on and can better attack things since you know the exact location.

 

[wahoo33417]

Dennis: Thanks for a great description. I had no clue what a vented loop really is. But your description gave me a more informed search and now I think I can envision what's going on behind that wall - and why we have a vented loop in the first place.

If Grady uses Jabsco parts with the Jabsco heads, then Jabsco only makes one, 1.5" vented loop. Now knowing its dimensions, (assuming another brand would be similar) there really is only one area behind the wall that can accomodate the loop.

The vent itself seems like an unlikely candidate to leak. It's supposed to introduce outside air after each flush. But the hose connections seem highly suspect. Especially after trailering 1,500 miles. I make it a point to go around the boat in an attempt to find what vibrated loose before it finds me. I believe this one found me first.

I'm pretty sure I can't get a peak at this from beneath the helm. But, as you suggested, thinking on the helm side, just maybe I can get a light on it from the removable panel on the starboard side of the aft berth.

Dennis, I'm sure you already know this, but for anyone else who may read this thrilling post, per Jabsco:

"A Vented Loop is an anti-siphon device. It is placed in the line above the water line and allows air in as the waste or water flows through the line. It is to prevent siphoning if your thru-hull or Seacock fails and your toilet or holding tank is below the water line."

Just as Grady gives us inspection ports at other points of connection, I would have appreciated one here while we were on vacation!

 

[seasick]

I believe the vented loop is only for the discharge line and if the selector were set to 'pumpout' that line does not have pressure. That said, there probably is a duck bill valve in the vent and if that wears out, it can cause a leak.

 

[DennisG01]

Yup, you got it, Wahoo. The main reason is to (possibly) prevent flooding your boat. In other systems, like a Vacuflush (which uses a miniscule amount of onboard, fresh water to flush), the vented loop isn't needed.

 

[wahoo33417]

And, reading up on this little "duckbill" it is supposed to be periodically soaked in warm water and white vinegar to maintain its pliability so that it doesn't leak. That is rather difficult to do when there is no designed access to it. That is a question I'll pose to Grady. Just in case I'm missing some form of access.

 

[glacierbaze]

I believe the vented loop is only for the discharge line and if the selector were set to 'pumpout' that line does not have pressure. That said, there probably is a duck bill valve in the vent and if that wears out, it can cause a leak.

There are 2 vented loops in the system, 3/4" on the overboard discharge of the holding tank, and 1 1/2" beside the toilet, where his problem is.

 

[gw204]

Been a long time since I crawled around in a Sailfish but I'm betting you could access the loop by removing one or more of the panels in the aft berth.

 

[ItalianAngler]

Been a long time since I crawled around in a Sailfish but I'm betting you could access the loop by removing one or more of the panels in the aft berth.

It's prob the same as my 2002 282. I replaced the line from the toilet to the 1.5" loop this offseason. The access is via a removable panel on the stbd side of the mid-berth. Piece of cake to get to, the hose requires a little wrestling and a heat gun helped me gain a little extra pliability in the removal and re-install. This was on a frigid day in early March. These systems require regular maintenance and inspection just like any other on the boat, if not, you'll inevitably have an issue. New joker valve, make sure the vent is clear, inspect the hoses, and so forth. My line was in tough shape so that's why i replaced that one, I'll probably do the others this upcoming offseason. Those black hoses tend to dry rot and crack, only a matter of time till they leak, and if they do you would see what your seeing. Either that or you have a loose connection or a compromised duck bill, these are simple systems. You can get a new duck bill at West Marine, pretty cheap, or clean yours if it looks ok. The holding tank is behind the aft panel in the mid-berth. If your under the hood anyway you should pull off the vent line, which is accessed via the same stbd panel AND the aft panel. I had a clog in each end, and in that L shaped fitting that goes into the tank from vent line. Mud wasps love to make nests at the far end where it exits the hull.

 

[wahoo33417]

Italian Angler: Thanks for your helpful response. Funny that you should mention mud wasps. I bought this boat in Maryland. When I pulled that starboard panel in the aft berth there were mud wasp nests on the autopilot system that was in there. I have since replaced that aged autopilot with power steering in that same location.

I don’t recall seeing the vented loop while I was in there, but I wasn't looking for one either. That will be the first place I’ll look when I get the boat back from the dealership.

I climbed all over the holding tank and checked fittings and made sure vent to outside of hull was clear when I bought the boat a year and a half ago. I was surprised that all the hoses and clamps appeared to be in rather good condition for a 14 year old boat.

If I’m lucky, it will be that the duckbill and vent cap just need replacing.

I told my wife that I’m ready to pull out this whole plumbing system and just go with a porta-potty. And then use the space for a real marine AC system. She said absolutely no to the porta-potty. Guess that wouldn’t help the resale value anyway.

 

[ItalianAngler]

Italian Angler: Thanks for your helpful response. Funny that you should mention mud wasps. I bought this boat in Maryland. When I pulled that starboard panel in the aft berth there were mud wasp nests on the autopilot system that was in there. I have since replaced that aged autopilot with power steering in that same location.

I don’t recall seeing the vented loop while I was in there, but I wasn't looking for one either. That will be the first place I’ll look when I get the boat back from the dealership.

I climbed all over the holding tank and checked fittings and made sure vent to outside of hull was clear when I bought the boat a year and a half ago. I was surprised that all the hoses and clamps appeared to be in rather good condition for a 14 year old boat.

If I’m lucky, it will be that the duckbill and vent cap just need replacing.

I told my wife that I’m ready to pull out this whole plumbing system and just go with a porta-potty. And then use the space for a real marine AC system. She said absolutely no to the porta-potty. Guess that wouldn’t help the resale value anyway.

The vented loop should be immediately to your left, essentially the back wall of the head, when you open up that panel. Some of my radar equipment and my Autopilot pump are in that spot as well. My wife would be highly displeased with a porta pot, as would my daughter, and to your point it probably does hurt your resale value. If you do add air conditioning I know it is often located behind the refrigerator, I had toyed with the idea back when we were doing more overnighting. As it stands now only my son and I ever stay on the boat for fishing trips.

Good luck and enjoy the boat! Every now and again we think about moving up to a Marlin or a 330 but then I am daunted at the prospect of getting another older boat just the way we want it.

 

[wahoo33417]

Thanks Italian. I'm hoping I can at least get a hand on it to feel where the leak is.

Once this problem is fixed, I'll give the entire plumbing as good of a going over as I can. Because I'm going to attempt to put a marine AC behind that aft berth rear panel. Which, of course will make future access to plumbing even more complicated.

However, water supply for the AC will come from the holding tank's overboard discharge sea-cock. That will simplify the plumbing system. And I won't need another hole in the bottom of my boat for the AC. The overboard discharge would never be used. As for resale value, lack of overboard discharge will be more than offset by having AC in south Florida, I hope. I don't really care. We bought the boat to enjoy the way we use it.

I'm still wrestling with the thought of whether one of the two existing sink drains can be used as the the discharge for the AC cooling water. Be nice to avoid another hole in the side of the boat too.

No Marlin in our future. My wife is just now becoming more comfortable running the Sailfish in open water. She still won't attempt to dock it. She used to take our 258 for 'girl's days' out. I'd like to get her that comfortable with the Sailfish. And I'm doing so much to this boat to make it useful for our boat trips, we have to keep it for a while. Our recent Great Lakes boat trip gave her a lot of time at the helm, so I hope that carries over at home towards her being more comfortable with the boat.

Rob

 

[wahoo33417]

So, as others have suggested, the vented loop for the toilet discharge line is fairly easy to get to. As was suggested, remove the starboard side panel in the aft berth and look towards the bow. Can't miss it.

Turns out, my leak wasn't in the 'duck bill' in the vent cap, although I did remove that for cleaning. Instead there is a small crack in the hose as it makes it's turn towards the head. After removing the clamp, I tried removing the hose from the plastic vent tube. I could easily turn it, but I couldn't easily pull it off. I believe if I put two hands on it and pull down and twist with some force, it will come off. I also believe that I will also then break, ruin, damage some of the many other wires and little hoses that run beneath this connection point. And likely plant my face into some fiberglass splinters as well.

So I'll get a new hose and come back with some small tools that will allow me to carefully cut this old hose into some smaller sections to make for easier removal.

Also, I carry this super stretchy tape that only sticks to itself that is advertised to be perfect for situations like this. Even for radiator hoses. So what the heck, I put a few wraps around the cracked hose and (temporarily) no more leak!

Also, just FYI, another vented loop just like this one but serving the overboard discharge line, is easily accessed (by a skinny teenager) from behind the aft panel in the aft berth. It too is pretty plain to see once you know what you're looking for.

The vented loop is the nearly 'U'-shaped pieced of plastic with a screw cap on top. The 1.5" toilet hose is simply clamped on. Inside the screw cap is a little 'duckbill' piece of rubber. The suction of toilet water passing through this tube forces the duckbill open and it draws in air, thereby preventing an accidental backflow situation.

 

[ItalianAngler]

Thanks Italian. I'm hoping I can at least get a hand on it to feel where the leak is.

Once this problem is fixed, I'll give the entire plumbing as good of a going over as I can. Because I'm going to attempt to put a marine AC behind that aft berth rear panel. Which, of course will make future access to plumbing even more complicated.

However, water supply for the AC will come from the holding tank's overboard discharge sea-cock. That will simplify the plumbing system. And I won't need another hole in the bottom of my boat for the AC. The overboard discharge would never be used. As for resale value, lack of overboard discharge will be more than offset by having AC in south Florida, I hope. I don't really care. We bought the boat to enjoy the way we use it.

I'm still wrestling with the thought of whether one of the two existing sink drains can be used as the the discharge for the AC cooling water. Be nice to avoid another hole in the side of the boat too.

No Marlin in our future. My wife is just now becoming more comfortable running the Sailfish in open water. She still won't attempt to dock it. She used to take our 258 for 'girl's days' out. I'd like to get her that comfortable with the Sailfish. And I'm doing so much to this boat to make it useful for our boat trips, we have to keep it for a while. Our recent Great Lakes boat trip gave her a lot of time at the helm, so I hope that carries over at home towards her being more comfortable with the boat.

Rob

In south florida AC sounds like a must-do, less of an issue in Maryland, but there sure are days where it would be nice. Interesting idea of how your planning to set it up, and I agree, less holes in the boat, the better! Plus, I can't use my overboard discharge in the bay, so i'd have no problem getting rid of it. When you do that project I'd be interested to see how you set it up and cost if you'd be willing to share that information.