Yamaha F225 Problems?
- Thread starter Capt. Ed
- Start date
I have a pair of 2004 F225's. This summer I found myself anchored next to the the owner of the local Grady White/Yamaha dealer and he happened to be in a trade-in he borrowed from the shop which also had a pair of F225's on it. We started chatting boats and motors and he is the one that alerted me to the F225 corrosion issue and he said they have done "alot" of corrosion repairs and that Yamaha HAS been fixing it under warranty. He strongly recommended I bring it in for an inspection. The engines have about 600 hours and are due for preventive water pump replacements at which time they can put a boroscope (video camera on a skinny flexible snake) up the exhaust and do a visual inspection.
I just finished reading whatever google could dredge up about "Yamaha F225 corrosion". Quite a bit of FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt) out there as well as very conflicting information. Many people reporting no problems. Some people saying its only the 2 star emissions and older and then a few posts later somone reporting their newer 3 star engines have the problem. Some people saying it was 2003 and earlier, others saying it was 2004 and earlier and then 4 posts later someone posting that they had the problem on their 2005 motor. And then a few eye-popping pictures of exhaust plates that look like swiss cheese. There clearly is a problem and as yet I have not learned why some engines have it but most do not. I have learned in my line of work (engineer) that there is ALWAYS an explanation if you look hard enough.
I'll be taking mine in for service and have them inspected for the problem in the next few days and I'll report back on what I learn.
I just finished reading whatever google could dredge up about "Yamaha F225 corrosion". Quite a bit of FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt) out there as well as very conflicting information. Many people reporting no problems. Some people saying its only the 2 star emissions and older and then a few posts later somone reporting their newer 3 star engines have the problem. Some people saying it was 2003 and earlier, others saying it was 2004 and earlier and then 4 posts later someone posting that they had the problem on their 2005 motor. And then a few eye-popping pictures of exhaust plates that look like swiss cheese. There clearly is a problem and as yet I have not learned why some engines have it but most do not. I have learned in my line of work (engineer) that there is ALWAYS an explanation if you look hard enough.
I'll be taking mine in for service and have them inspected for the problem in the next few days and I'll report back on what I learn.
I dropped the boat off yesterday for service at Hilton Head Boat House. While I was there I asked the service manager how many engines they had repaired for corrosion of the exhaust manifold plate and it turns out that the owner's "alot" was actually 4 motors. They were all F225's. He believed Yamaha knew they had a problem and had reacted by changing/improving the coating on the manifold.
I got a call today after the mechanic inspected mine and the service manager said they looked clean. I asked for pictures which I'll post once I get them. There is lots of discussion on THT about flushing after running with the general consensus being that it should not matter as it does not affect the "dry side" of the manifold where the corrosion is happening. But for the record I do not flush.
I am guessing they (Hilton Head Boat House) have sold at least 100's of F225s making the failure percentage at worst a number in the low single digits and at best less than 1 percent so this does not appear to be an epidemic that will affect all F225s My best guess is that quality control in their coating process allowed a small percentage of exhaust manifolds with a poor coating. Perhaps the coating was not applied thick enough, was not well mixed or was not well cured. I am guessing its like any coated metal on the engine; once the defense barrier of paint & primer has been breached by a chip or scratch etc, corrosion takes root and spreads like a fungus. The Arrhenius equation states that the rate of a chemical reaction (which corrosion is) doubles for every 10C rise in temperature which means 1 hour of corroding at 100C (212F) is the same as 256 hours corroding at 20C (68F). I do not know the actual manifold temperature but guessing it may be quite a bit higher than 100C.
I got a call today after the mechanic inspected mine and the service manager said they looked clean. I asked for pictures which I'll post once I get them. There is lots of discussion on THT about flushing after running with the general consensus being that it should not matter as it does not affect the "dry side" of the manifold where the corrosion is happening. But for the record I do not flush.
I am guessing they (Hilton Head Boat House) have sold at least 100's of F225s making the failure percentage at worst a number in the low single digits and at best less than 1 percent so this does not appear to be an epidemic that will affect all F225s My best guess is that quality control in their coating process allowed a small percentage of exhaust manifolds with a poor coating. Perhaps the coating was not applied thick enough, was not well mixed or was not well cured. I am guessing its like any coated metal on the engine; once the defense barrier of paint & primer has been breached by a chip or scratch etc, corrosion takes root and spreads like a fungus. The Arrhenius equation states that the rate of a chemical reaction (which corrosion is) doubles for every 10C rise in temperature which means 1 hour of corroding at 100C (212F) is the same as 256 hours corroding at 20C (68F). I do not know the actual manifold temperature but guessing it may be quite a bit higher than 100C.
Fact: The F225 has corrosion problems. Many can attest to this and pitures do not lie.
Fact: Yamaha's #1 Customer is Grady-White. The sell more outboards to GW than any other single customer.
If someone has the skills and initiative to launch a class action, please do so and we'll get many Grady Owners and non-Grady Owners to sign up.
Other than opening our check books, this appears to be our only option.
Collectively, we can be very strong, but individually, very weak...
Fact: Yamaha's #1 Customer is Grady-White. The sell more outboards to GW than any other single customer.
If someone has the skills and initiative to launch a class action, please do so and we'll get many Grady Owners and non-Grady Owners to sign up.
Other than opening our check books, this appears to be our only option.
Collectively, we can be very strong, but individually, very weak...
Y'all say this is confined to the F225. Is there any evidence or reports of this problem with the 250s? Just wondering?
No and if there is it is an anomaly. My dealer talked with the Yamaha tech support about this issue and they said sometime in 04' some changes were made. The F250 is supposed to be free from this issue. My 2006 F250 was manufactured in April of 2006 and they told me it had the new coatings.
The boat show season begins shortly. The NY boat show is 1/21 - 1/24 and I plan on visiting the Yamaha booth, hopefully along with other 225 owners, and asking about this issue. The more folks that do this in NY and around the country the more Yamaha may realize that they will need to address the issue in some manner.
Anybody want to meet in NY?
Anybody want to meet in NY?
Not a bad idea you have fish1. It makes me wonder what engineers who designed this part of the motor what they specified as to the parts life expectancy? Based on folks experiences here it appears Yamaha knew it was a potential problem and corrected it. Wonder if the route to press first is for y'all to file a compliant withe consumer product safety folks who then could make yammi do a recall?
TGFI (Thank God for the Internet)
Good luck with the Yamaha factory rep at the NY show. The Yamaha factory rep is usually a walking talking Yamaha catalog which I can take off the shelf and read myself on the train ride home, as I usually do.
TIP: I suggest you go over to the Mercury factory rep, I learn what I need to find out on such matters about Yamaha products, if you know what I mean.
The Yamaha booth is usually also manned with local dealers taking turns, if Jimmy or Walter of Suffolk Marine is there - that's the ticket.
Call Suffolk Marine to see what the schedule is. Make sure you pull Jimmy/Walter to the side away from Yamaha factory rep earshot when you do.
Good luck with the Yamaha factory rep at the NY show. The Yamaha factory rep is usually a walking talking Yamaha catalog which I can take off the shelf and read myself on the train ride home, as I usually do.
TIP: I suggest you go over to the Mercury factory rep, I learn what I need to find out on such matters about Yamaha products, if you know what I mean.
The Yamaha booth is usually also manned with local dealers taking turns, if Jimmy or Walter of Suffolk Marine is there - that's the ticket.
Call Suffolk Marine to see what the schedule is. Make sure you pull Jimmy/Walter to the side away from Yamaha factory rep earshot when you do.
Fishtales
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This is pretty disheartening. My previous boat had twin F225s. I never had a problem, but I saw the lower unit off the boat this year - hope it wasn't this for the new owner. New one has 2005 F250s and I'm still not convinced they are clean. Scary when we drop $16K a pop. This isn't chump change folks.
Yamaha needs to step up and make this right. If not and this thing gets out of control they risk that their reputation will be severly tarnished. If it is a low percentage problem in a tight date/lot range - DO THE RIGHT THING AND FIX IT. Keeping it in the closet will only make this much worse for them in the long term.
I'm concerned that if the current strategy continues, it is a proof point that this is a design flaw not a contained lot process problem. If this is the case, the exposure is likely huge.
They have 2 choices at this point. Step up and spend a lot of money to make it right or continue the current path and stick their head in the sand or worse blame the customer. This flush stuff is just that.
When Grady had a delamination problem early in their history they stepped up at great expense and made it right for their customers. People are willing to pay a premium when a firm stands behind their product.
My question is if Yamaha doesn't do the right thing, does Grady want to continue to lock customers in with a firm with this culture?
At a minimum, I would hope a 2nd manufacturer would be offered by Grady so customers have a choice. I would also hope their procurement team split the spend percentage heavily to the 2nd manufacturer until Yamaha changes position. Maybe when the orders slow they will change position and put their customers first.
Pretty sad.
Yamaha needs to step up and make this right. If not and this thing gets out of control they risk that their reputation will be severly tarnished. If it is a low percentage problem in a tight date/lot range - DO THE RIGHT THING AND FIX IT. Keeping it in the closet will only make this much worse for them in the long term.
I'm concerned that if the current strategy continues, it is a proof point that this is a design flaw not a contained lot process problem. If this is the case, the exposure is likely huge.
They have 2 choices at this point. Step up and spend a lot of money to make it right or continue the current path and stick their head in the sand or worse blame the customer. This flush stuff is just that.
When Grady had a delamination problem early in their history they stepped up at great expense and made it right for their customers. People are willing to pay a premium when a firm stands behind their product.
My question is if Yamaha doesn't do the right thing, does Grady want to continue to lock customers in with a firm with this culture?
At a minimum, I would hope a 2nd manufacturer would be offered by Grady so customers have a choice. I would also hope their procurement team split the spend percentage heavily to the 2nd manufacturer until Yamaha changes position. Maybe when the orders slow they will change position and put their customers first.
Pretty sad.
im trying to get an answer from my buddy in yami as we speak
stay tuned on this
i bet they had bad metal, that good ol USA sold them, LOL
stay tuned on this
i bet they had bad metal, that good ol USA sold them, LOL
I think the least Yamaha and Grady White owe us is to work feverishly to understand why some early manufactured motors fail and others don't (at least not yet.) I understand there was a problem with the coating, but that doesn't explain everything. Then, those of us that bought motors because we were told they were bullet proof and who knows how long they would last, would have information we could use to lessen our chances of a problem or perform preventive maintenance.
As others have noted, there must be some type of smoking gun or common denominator that causes the problem in some but not all early motors.
Yamaha should step up and start doing more intensive research through the dealer networks, especially GW.
As others have noted, there must be some type of smoking gun or common denominator that causes the problem in some but not all early motors.
Yamaha should step up and start doing more intensive research through the dealer networks, especially GW.
I stopped by to check on the progress on my boat and chatted with the mechanic who confirmed what the service manager told me. He estimated that he works on 10-12 F225's a week and he has made 3 corrosion repairs total. Thats roughly a 1% failure rate. I manufacture electronics and a 1% field failure rate in my products would be indicative of a process reliability problem but not a design defect. Design defects, by definition, would affect 100% of the product. A process reliability problem would defintiely require corrective action, which it sounds like Yamaha has taken, but it would not require a recall. Yamaha probably should put out a technical service bulletin alerting their dealers and F225 owners to have their engines inspected for the problem.
The exhaust plate/manifold corrosion should unquestionably be a repair thats covered under warranty. I would be as irate as some of the other posters who have had this problem if Yamaha refused to cover it on my engines had they been affected. Where it gets interesting and contentious is what happens if your engine is a month or year or two years out of warranty. Thats what is called a latent defect i.e. it was there during the warranty but you did not know about it.
The exhaust plate/manifold corrosion should unquestionably be a repair thats covered under warranty. I would be as irate as some of the other posters who have had this problem if Yamaha refused to cover it on my engines had they been affected. Where it gets interesting and contentious is what happens if your engine is a month or year or two years out of warranty. Thats what is called a latent defect i.e. it was there during the warranty but you did not know about it.
I diasgree on the design defect "100%" statement.
Technically, although Yamaha would have plenty of legal legs to stand on if motors they sell die one day after warranty ends, FOR WHATEVER REASON, they would be out of business on the second day.
If it's not safety related, free market forces play, not the Fed government such as Coast Guard,etc, coming to your support.
No recreational user buys a motor with the understanding the motor will require $6K of work for no fault of your own, in such a short period of time, do they?
Based on the history of outboard motors which goes back way further than 2002 "Fs", never heard of such exhaust area failures, nor the balance shaft hardware premature failure wrecking the motor on F150s.
Pure and simple, Yamaha screwed up, and it's your money and property of value, you either take it laying down or standing up and fighting, that's only if the amount matters, otherwise it's just a different figure on the check you sign to the dealer's service department.
The internet is a wonderful place to educate and blog the living end out who cheats you, only if you believe you are cheated and if you knew when the dealer sold you the motors such an expense was possible at whatever failure rate now stated by dealers, would you have still bought the motors?
I'll never buy any F225, F250, nor F150 used unless all these parts being discussed have been replaced, period. Same goes for flywhell on the F350. Who only knows what's up with the new lighter replacement line V6s by Yamaha.
Technically, although Yamaha would have plenty of legal legs to stand on if motors they sell die one day after warranty ends, FOR WHATEVER REASON, they would be out of business on the second day.
If it's not safety related, free market forces play, not the Fed government such as Coast Guard,etc, coming to your support.
No recreational user buys a motor with the understanding the motor will require $6K of work for no fault of your own, in such a short period of time, do they?
Based on the history of outboard motors which goes back way further than 2002 "Fs", never heard of such exhaust area failures, nor the balance shaft hardware premature failure wrecking the motor on F150s.
Pure and simple, Yamaha screwed up, and it's your money and property of value, you either take it laying down or standing up and fighting, that's only if the amount matters, otherwise it's just a different figure on the check you sign to the dealer's service department.
The internet is a wonderful place to educate and blog the living end out who cheats you, only if you believe you are cheated and if you knew when the dealer sold you the motors such an expense was possible at whatever failure rate now stated by dealers, would you have still bought the motors?
I'll never buy any F225, F250, nor F150 used unless all these parts being discussed have been replaced, period. Same goes for flywhell on the F350. Who only knows what's up with the new lighter replacement line V6s by Yamaha.
Gman25
GreatGrady Captain
I would be curious how GW feels about this issue as well? Being they dont offer any other outboard other then Yamaha I wonder if this would force GW to offer a choice of outboard for those(Not Me)who have lost confidence in Yamaha?
2005 300 Marlin w/F250's
2005 300 Marlin w/F250's
Ironically to GMAN25 post, the reason, perhaps one of the reasons, Grady married Yamaha was because the dealers were getting the brunt of complaints on the FICHT fiasco, and OMC going belly up thereafter. Same time Merc was buying powerheads from Yamaha.
Real mess in outboard industry back then
Above is word of mouth Grady dealer rep back in very late 90s.
That's why I've always called it a "shotgun wedding".
The kind of things I remember.
I forgot to mention in my last post, the rattling gearbox issue on the F150 solved with an aluminum prop, per Yamaha.
Love than one.
The irony.
Real mess in outboard industry back then
Above is word of mouth Grady dealer rep back in very late 90s.
That's why I've always called it a "shotgun wedding".
The kind of things I remember.
I forgot to mention in my last post, the rattling gearbox issue on the F150 solved with an aluminum prop, per Yamaha.
Love than one.
The irony.
Is this problem only for 2002 a newer 4 stroke or 2 stoke? I have 199/2000 2 stroke 225's and was wondering if I need to check this out.
From reading this thread I didn't see any comments about the F200. I have an 04 and can't afford any problems.
One person on THT said the problem includes the F200, but I take comments on THT with a grain of salt.
Should I be concerned?
Bama what if your source that the problem is only with 225's?
One person on THT said the problem includes the F200, but I take comments on THT with a grain of salt.
Should I be concerned?
Bama what if your source that the problem is only with 225's?