Hmm... would be interesting off a Dakota lithium...
Still curious if it would be better to go 24v?
Still curious if it would be better to go 24v?
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300 Marlin - Gen or not to Gen?
- Thread starter Ralph163
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SkunkBoat
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Hehehe..."project going down the rabbit hole"
OK I'm game ...lets flesh it out.
Assume this is separate from the House & Start batteries already in place
Lets talk cheap down & dirty.
grp27DC 12V 109AH lead acid battery $85+tax...lets just call it $100...x2 in parallel for 12v or x2 in series for 24V system
2000W pure sinewave inverter12v or 24V ... lets call it $300
How do we Charge it? Run one motor's aux to House and one to the "coffee battery"... OH! how do we charge a 24v setup....
Where do we put them?
On the bigger Gradys they go where the genset would go..right?
My 265 doesn't have that but I could put it in the bilge where the old oil tanks were.
Asssuming that works out, we run AC power to the cabin so we only need 12awg wire (connecting to existing shore power circiut would require cutout switch and more thought...)
Any issue with those spaces and an inverter that has cooling fans? probably
Does the inverter need to be in the cabin? that makes our wires too big
my brain is starting to hurt...
How about a really big thermos of hot coffee and a "cigarette lighter" 12V travel mug?
OK I'm game ...lets flesh it out.
Assume this is separate from the House & Start batteries already in place
Lets talk cheap down & dirty.
grp27DC 12V 109AH lead acid battery $85+tax...lets just call it $100...x2 in parallel for 12v or x2 in series for 24V system
2000W pure sinewave inverter12v or 24V ... lets call it $300
How do we Charge it? Run one motor's aux to House and one to the "coffee battery"... OH! how do we charge a 24v setup....
Where do we put them?
On the bigger Gradys they go where the genset would go..right?
My 265 doesn't have that but I could put it in the bilge where the old oil tanks were.
Asssuming that works out, we run AC power to the cabin so we only need 12awg wire (connecting to existing shore power circiut would require cutout switch and more thought...)
Any issue with those spaces and an inverter that has cooling fans? probably
Does the inverter need to be in the cabin? that makes our wires too big
my brain is starting to hurt...How about a really big thermos of hot coffee and a "cigarette lighter" 12V travel mug?
Ok...so let me be clear, I am not advocating to do this...but the concept is interesting to discuss.
That said, all of what you described is actually pretty feasible. And if I sat hear and described a genset installation, that too would sound insanely complex and expensive as well. At minimum, this setup could be an 12v inverter and two batteries. Pulling 12v to charge is rather simple and could be floated off with a charging relay. Putting the batteries & inverter in the small bed/storage under the helm would keep it close to the panel and the microwave. It would use only a small amount of space there. Lithium would probably be better...faster recharge, deeper DOD and the ability to maintain voltage better. Albeit, a bit more expensive and would require a charger.
This is not simply about a cup of coffee. I just find the idea of hot food and drinks very nice when your out fishing for 24 hours. I will most likely go with a genset, but to simply heat some food the genset could be considered overkill. This concept is interesting. Seems like plenty of campers are already doing this.
That said, all of what you described is actually pretty feasible. And if I sat hear and described a genset installation, that too would sound insanely complex and expensive as well. At minimum, this setup could be an 12v inverter and two batteries. Pulling 12v to charge is rather simple and could be floated off with a charging relay. Putting the batteries & inverter in the small bed/storage under the helm would keep it close to the panel and the microwave. It would use only a small amount of space there. Lithium would probably be better...faster recharge, deeper DOD and the ability to maintain voltage better. Albeit, a bit more expensive and would require a charger.
This is not simply about a cup of coffee. I just find the idea of hot food and drinks very nice when your out fishing for 24 hours. I will most likely go with a genset, but to simply heat some food the genset could be considered overkill. This concept is interesting. Seems like plenty of campers are already doing this.
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SkunkBoat
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Yep. Backup AC power from Inverter/charger with multiple battery banks is very common.
its the "marine" application on a small boat that makes it a bit more complicated.
On the bigger models you have the room for a genset or a big battery bank. If you have a big cabin you have a reasonable expectation to use the boat as a live-aboard for weekends and so you'll use a refridgerator/microwave/ Air conditioner and Hot water heater. I think a genset makes sense in that case.
In my case a genset is not an option. I push the tackle bags and extra rods to the side and take an hour nap on the bunk. Would be nice to get up to a hot cup of coffee at 2 am
Yes, and from what I see, using an "Inverter Microwave" might be useful. Lower, more consistent draw possible. What suprises me is how much a Keurig draws.
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This looks like the easy solution!
https://www.jackery.com/products/explorer-1500-portable-power-station
https://www.jackery.com/products/explorer-1500-portable-power-station
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That looks interesting. Could charge from shore power.
This also looks interesting for an application like yours for a more permanent solution.. Would include the ability to charge from alternator and/or solar and the ability to upgrade to 200ah. They also mention "marine" applications. But yes, "some assembly is required". lol
Dakota Lithium 12v 100Ah Off-Grid Solar Power System
Dakota 12v solar kit power system for mid-sized boats, Sprinter or camper vans, and RVs all day long. Solar kit comes with 25 years output warranty.
dakotalithium.com
SkunkBoat
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The Jackery one is solar capable too, just plug in their panels. and it can charge (slowly) thru a12V accessory. They make a 2kW version.
It can pretty much replace a little Honda gas generator at slightly higher price and no issues with fuel. Portable. Can store it in cabin. No wiring.
I just can't spend $1500 for coffee and I already have a big portable generator for home so I can't use it for other uses.
It can pretty much replace a little Honda gas generator at slightly higher price and no issues with fuel. Portable. Can store it in cabin. No wiring.
I just can't spend $1500 for coffee and I already have a big portable generator for home so I can't use it for other uses.
Ok...so if you reheat leftovers for lunch on your boat using this system, by the 100th meal the system paid for itself! Does that help? lol
In all seriousness though, if I can't find a Marlin with a genset, I will probably buy a Victron or Mastervolt inverter/charger and a 200ah lithium or carbon foam AGM battery. The concern I have with the Jackery or the Bluetti is recharging. You want the system fully charged when you arrive at your boat. Apparently, there are some issues leaving it on the AC charger unattended. Something like the Victron inverter/charger is designed to take your shore power and monitor it to keep your bank charged and ready when you arrive. Plus the system is easily expandable...can later add a DC charger (charging from your motor), or a Solar Panel, or an additional battery to increase your bank size.
Is there a cost? yes. Is there some effort to install? yes. But there is with any upgrade, especially a genset. Personally, I would much rather a genset. But this system, for a couple of thousand dollars, let's me use my AC accessories while out on the water. Instead of the boat simply being a storage unit on the water. It's more than just "a cup of coffee". Sheesh, I spent more on my satellite compass.
Right now this is just a conversation. But this thread, and especially your input, has given me some alternatives to possibly consider. Thanks. Now I just need to find a Marlin, my current boat should be sold in the next couple of weeks.
https://www.mastervolt.com/products/powercombi/powercombi-12-2000-100/ $700
https://www.renogy.com/12v-200ah-lithium-iron-phosphate-battery-w-bluetooth/ $1,000
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I have used portable generators in my boat for about 25 years. Coleman 1500w (very loud), Honda 1000w inverter and lastly a Yamaha 2000w inverter. By far the Honda was the best. Easy to start and quite. You can ground them to the boat but I never did and never had a problem. I ran the generators all night long to light up the bottom and charge up batteries powering the trolling motor. Flounder gigging, but not in my Grady. One thing that is important is to keep generator dry. Dont set on boat floor and dont let salt spray get on generator. Water does conduct electricity. One generator was ruined by rogue wave one night. Just use one power cord per plug (there are two plugs) and plug device you want to power with the power cord. If the generator senses a short it automatically shuts off power. It has a reset switch if that happens. You also have the battery, inverter option howerver make sure it is enough amps to power the device.
I'll post a full write up with pictures once the system is installed, but just FYI, here's my thinking and some rough math.
Firstly, my use case is perhaps a little unusual. Except for 1 or 2 overnight fishing trips per year (if that), 100% of my trips are day trips. I boat off Cape Cod, so have never once turned the AC on underway (or for that matter at the dock except to see if it's still working). So I used my old FP generator for exactly 3 things: Making coffee in my Keurig machine, quick meal in the microwave, and running a small ceramic heater for a few minutes to defog the front windshield when departing at 3am.
So for me, the Mastervolt 2000 watt inverter/charger replacing my failed generator should work great. The quick math for running the microwave is as follows:
Microwave uses about 800 watts of AC power. Producing 800 watts requires 800 / 12volts = 67 amps of 12 volt DC, *but* the inverter is only 89% efficient so have to add an additional 7 amps, so call it about 75 amps. I'm using 2 AGM Lead Acid batteries with a total capacity of 200 amp hours, *but* one should only use 50% of the capacity to maximize battery life. So I can run the microwave or any other similar appliance for a bit over one hour. Should be plenty!
I considered going Lithium Ion which would enable me to downsize to only 100 amp hours of total capacity (since you can use up pretty much the full capacity without harm), but I decided to stay Lead Acid because I wanted to be able to use the Aux charging ports from my Yamaha 4.2L outboards to charge the inverter battery bank when underway. I spend 1 month each summer on a mooring in Nantucket away from any shore power, so my engines are my only charging source. I've read highly mixed opinions about charging Lion batteries directly from outboards (risk of burning out the alternators), and Yamaha is pretty clear that they do not recommend. Plus, with the aux cables connected, the outboards will supply some of the amperage needed to run the inverter.
Lastly, I also considered going 24 volts, but there didn't seem to be much advantage since I am mounting the inverter and batteries in the bilge area where the generator and fuel tank used to be, so cable lengths were not a problem. For simplicity, I am leaving the existing house and starter batteries untouched -- the inverter system is totally separate.
Firstly, my use case is perhaps a little unusual. Except for 1 or 2 overnight fishing trips per year (if that), 100% of my trips are day trips. I boat off Cape Cod, so have never once turned the AC on underway (or for that matter at the dock except to see if it's still working). So I used my old FP generator for exactly 3 things: Making coffee in my Keurig machine, quick meal in the microwave, and running a small ceramic heater for a few minutes to defog the front windshield when departing at 3am.
So for me, the Mastervolt 2000 watt inverter/charger replacing my failed generator should work great. The quick math for running the microwave is as follows:
Microwave uses about 800 watts of AC power. Producing 800 watts requires 800 / 12volts = 67 amps of 12 volt DC, *but* the inverter is only 89% efficient so have to add an additional 7 amps, so call it about 75 amps. I'm using 2 AGM Lead Acid batteries with a total capacity of 200 amp hours, *but* one should only use 50% of the capacity to maximize battery life. So I can run the microwave or any other similar appliance for a bit over one hour. Should be plenty!
I considered going Lithium Ion which would enable me to downsize to only 100 amp hours of total capacity (since you can use up pretty much the full capacity without harm), but I decided to stay Lead Acid because I wanted to be able to use the Aux charging ports from my Yamaha 4.2L outboards to charge the inverter battery bank when underway. I spend 1 month each summer on a mooring in Nantucket away from any shore power, so my engines are my only charging source. I've read highly mixed opinions about charging Lion batteries directly from outboards (risk of burning out the alternators), and Yamaha is pretty clear that they do not recommend. Plus, with the aux cables connected, the outboards will supply some of the amperage needed to run the inverter.
Lastly, I also considered going 24 volts, but there didn't seem to be much advantage since I am mounting the inverter and batteries in the bilge area where the generator and fuel tank used to be, so cable lengths were not a problem. For simplicity, I am leaving the existing house and starter batteries untouched -- the inverter system is totally separate.
So I am right there with you. If I buy the boat without the gen I am considering the same approach. I am looking at 24v, simply for the efficiency and safety...less amperage, less heat, better conversion of energy. But the extra cost might not be worth it. I would probably go with lithium, more usable energy, lighter, faster recharge. My plan would be to charge via AC through the inverter/charger at the dock. Some day I could consider a solar panel or or victron/xantrax DC/DC charging from the motor, or simply add a second battery if I am pleased with the system. But I think dockside AC charging will be much faster and easier, and keep the system simple. With 24v 100ah lithium (or 12v 200ah), it should meet my power needs. I will also keep my system separate from my house.
Good stuff. Please keep me posted.
BTW...yah...charging Lithium directly from engine is no bueno. None of the LifePo4 manufacture recommend that.. Must come through a dc/dc charger. Needs to be precise voltage and well regulated. Look at the solar panels sold by Dakota, they look interesting. Could keep you charged at the mooring. I might wind up with a panel and a dc/dc charger. I will determine that later. For now an inverter/charger and a lithium battery.
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Yeah I would have definitely gone Lithium and dockside AC charging if I didn't spend that month away from my dock. But ironically that's also when I'm most likely to be using the inverter!
I still can't figure out why outboard manufacturers don't offer an upgrade to generate 120v AC -- seems like it wouldn't be that hard considering they have all the elements, including water cooling already...
I use a Honda on my Marlin. It works great for the coffee maker, microwave, etc
I have read & re-read thru all these responses, and I understand roughly 10% of them, as I am a rock drummer with a Grady, and not an electrical tech-guy.
All I know is I have a 300 Marlin with a Fischer-Panda Generator and I love it. I wouldn't be without it. If it tanks,. I'll replace it with another one. We stay overnite at anchor, fire up the generator and everything works. Period. She cooks, we have hot water, A/C, a microwave, and outlets to charge phones, etc. Perfect.
There are no dangerous fumes, it'll handle up to 41 amps, (more than the shorepower cord,) and the constant hum overnight is great "white noise to sleep to. Besides, it makes me feel like I have a big expensive yacht when I pull up to a dock with it running.....
Good hunting to Ralph163; Here's hoping you find the right combo for you!
All I know is I have a 300 Marlin with a Fischer-Panda Generator and I love it. I wouldn't be without it. If it tanks,. I'll replace it with another one. We stay overnite at anchor, fire up the generator and everything works. Period. She cooks, we have hot water, A/C, a microwave, and outlets to charge phones, etc. Perfect.
There are no dangerous fumes, it'll handle up to 41 amps, (more than the shorepower cord,) and the constant hum overnight is great "white noise to sleep to. Besides, it makes me feel like I have a big expensive yacht when I pull up to a dock with it running.....
Good hunting to Ralph163; Here's hoping you find the right combo for you!
I have a 06 Marlin with the Panda Fisher, never had an issue with it, I use it here and there for AC, cup of coffee, blender for some nice summer drinks and the microwave (mac and cheese for the kids).
Really nice to have when you need it, who wants to lug around a portable gen? just another thing to get in your way…..
If your shopping around, go for all the bells and whistles, generator, bow truster and AC. You will be kicking yourself for years if you don’t.
Really nice to have when you need it, who wants to lug around a portable gen? just another thing to get in your way…..
If your shopping around, go for all the bells and whistles, generator, bow truster and AC. You will be kicking yourself for years if you don’t.
This may quite possibly be a really stupid question, but here it goes.....I have a Marlin without a generator and have been following this post and can clearly see the downside of lithium charging from the engines and the use of a portable gas generator. However, the idea of a power station like the Jackery 1500 looks interesting. Now the (possibly stupid) question - - if I had a Jackery on the boat could I use an adapter and plug into my shore power receptacle so that everything on the AC side of the power system would have power? I would keep most of the breakers off as I do now when plugged into shore power, but it would be nice to be able to use the microwave and plug accessories that need power into the various plugs down in the cabin. For many of the reasons mentioned, I would not charge the system either connected to shore power or on the boat and would bring it fully charged on the days where I'm going to want the power available. Any input on this idea? And, thanks to all for an interesting exploration of alternatives.